[aprssig] A Proposal for the Continuation of APRS

Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) KJ4ERJ at arrl.net
Tue Feb 15 12:38:08 EST 2022


Ok, I'll de-cloak and throw my hat into the ring.  While I'm not ready 
at this time to commit to being an officer of an APRS-supporting 
corporation, I will absolutely support whatever direction the ongoing 
support of APRS will take. I do believe that for the purposes of the 
APRS trademark and protocol standardization, some form of central 
organization will be necessary.  Jeff's points about 501c(3) non-profit 
being a reasonable way to go makes sense to me.  Philanthropic 
organizations really don't like dealing with individuals (too much 
opportunity for dishonesty) and many non-profits will only contribute to 
other non-profits, which pretty much precludes other types of 
organizations in the US corporate space.

On the APRS technical side, I present the following points:

First Licensed in 2008 at the encouragement of my son (KJ4DXK) and some 
of his friends.

As soon as I ran into APRS, I knew that was my niche in Amateur Radio.  
Wrote a Windows Mobile APRS-IS client simply because I could.  APRSISCE 
was born in August or September of 2008.

Built the first Windows version of APRSIS32 in July 2009 and added the 
OpenStreetMap maps in August of that year.

Upgraded to Extra in 2010 just to be able to run APRS over RF on a 
European vacation.

And I've been actively involved in the APRS world since then, including 
activating the southern-most station at Springer Mountain, Georgia for 
the first ever Appalachian Trail Golden Packet APRS event.  This was a 
last-minute decision on Thursday before the weekend event when I saw 
that no one had signed up for that station.  Road Trip from Florida with 
way more radio gear and batteries than were necessary.  And that year we 
packed it all from the nearest parking area to the actual peak at the 
southern terminus of the trail.  And I've been involved as "Shack 
Potato" ever since assisting with the coordination and being a central 
information exchange for the on-trail APRS operators.

I'm a computer programmer by profession since graduating college in 
1981.  I've done everything from digital satellite communications in the 
early 80s, to mass transit emergency ventilation systems, to warehouse 
automated picking dispatch in the mid-80s (back when COBOL was the 
language of choice for business systems), to networked VAX and microVAX 
computers doing a tire verification shop management system, to even more 
warehouse automation and eventually culminating in my own two person 
company (now down to one due to my partner retiring) doing RF ID 
automated gate processing, Voice Picking, and most most recently 
assisting with a high end 3D control system.

I look forward to helping make APRS more approachable for new authors 
and following along on the protocol's future evolution, however painful 
or pleasant that might be.

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


On 2/15/2022 1:07 AM, Jeff Hochberg wrote:
>
> All,
>
>
> We are so pleased to see the responses from everyone!
>
>
> A few high-level points:
>
>
> 1.
>
>     A few people have emailed John T. and I directly. Steve Dimse
>     asked me to ensure that all discussions related to my original
>     post stay within aprssig.
>
> While it's great that you want to reach out directly, please ensure 
> you keep aprssig looped in.
>
> If this is going to be a group decision, then it's best to keep 
> everyoneabreast of the latest updates.
>
> 2.
>
>     There was mention in my original email of two others that have
>     shown interest in the initial proposal.
>
> John Langner - WB2OSZ (author of Direwolf)  provided me with his 
> permission to share his name.
>
> That leaves one remaining "masked" individual that needs to give me 
> the "thumbs up" to reveal their identity - or they can reveal their 
> identity themself (you know who you are- LOL!). :-)
>
>
> 3.
>
>     This is not a technology discussion - rather it's to discuss the
>     future of APRS at a high-level. Please keep the conversation
>     relevant. This is not the time or place to solve technology
>     issues. That will come in due time! It’s what we all want to work on.
>
>
>
> 4.
>
>     I can understand and appreciate the concerns about whatever is
>     proposed being based in the United States.
>
>
> Don't forget that Robert Bruninga was based in the United States from 
> the inception of APRS as well as long before it. Somehow, APRS made 
> its way around the world and has a global community and it will 
> continue to.
>
>
> We are 100% on board with equality and diversity - there will NEVERbe 
> any biases towards anyone from any cultural, political, religious, 
> ethnic, racial, sex, or any other traits that would otherwise be cause 
> for prejudice.
>
>
> We come from backgrounds of working with teams that span the globe. 
> There is absolutely ZERO chance of anything that we are championing 
> would end up pigeonholed in a cause that is exclusively within the 
> confines of the United States.
>
>
> We recognize the efforts of hams around the world - and will continue 
> to do so as long as we are involved.
>
>
> In fact, as far as I am concerned, anyone that breaches that is cause 
> for immediate termination from the association.
>
>
> This is a GLOBAL effort. We ask that anyone that wants to join in to 
> be respectful and courteous to your peers. There’s no need to draw any 
> boundaries around anything we do together. Technology knows no boundaries.
>
>
>
> 5.
>
>     I am not a fan of paralysis through analysis as it’s one of the
>     leading causes that stifles progress. If there are business-level
>     topics that you feel must be discussed prior to moving forward,
>     then this would be an appropriate time to do so.
>
>
> But again, we ask that the conversations be elevated to a high-level 
> and do not get bogged down in the bits and bytes of APRS.
>
>
>
> 6.
>
>     There were points raised about the cost/expense and legal
>     implications of doing this. Again, don't focus on the specifics.
>     We aren't going to allow bureaucracy and politics scare us from
>     doing what needs to be done.
>
>
> Truthfully, the cost associated with creating a 501(c)3 non-profit 
> corporation is not as expensive as you might think. I've talked with 
> some people that think it costs thousands of dollars. It isn’t 
> cost-prohibitive if you go about it in an economical manner.
>
>
> The point in setting up a non-profit corporation is to provide a 
> foundation on which to work with other organizations that would 
> otherwise not work with individuals. Especially in cases where we 
> might want to seek funding from other organizations.
>
>
> Plus, it provides protections in cases where there are legal issues 
> such that officers cannot have their personal assets seized.
>
>
> At the end of the day, an organization needs to own the trademark and 
> the domain and there has to be some entity to spearhead the effort.
>
>
> Please don't focus on the fiscal aspects (or legal for that matter).
>
>
>
> 7.
>
>     It’s a little premature to be thinking of asking manufacturers to
>     join at this juncture. It’s something to think about down the
>     road, but not right now.
>
>
> Please do not get wrapped around in the minutiae. Let's work together 
> as a team effort to further APRS into the future - in whatever form it 
> may take.
>
>
> For anyone that expressed interest in being part of this effort, your 
> interest has been noted. We appreciate your support and will take you 
> up on your offer!
>
>
> Think boldly - think strong - and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise!
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
>
> -JeffH
>
>
> Jeff Hochberg
> W4JEW
> Atlanta, GA
> jeff at w4jew.com <mailto:jeff at w4jew.com>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 3:55 PM Andrew Pavlin <spam8mybrain at yahoo.com> 
> wrote:
>
>     You can't practically run both protocols on the same RF channel
>     because it wastes channel bandwidth on signals some
>     (single-protocol) stations can't understand. We have enough
>     problems with collisions and hidden transmitters without making it
>     worse with doubled transmissions from the same stations. Plus,
>     there are some digipeaters that can't handle two AX.25 frames
>     back-to-back (i.e., one APRS, one OpenTRAC).
>
>     An alternate frequency would be much better, so the stations that
>     understand a particular protocol tune to that frequency (just like
>     we don't do APRS on the Winlink or PBBS frequencies). Merging is a
>     problem, because if you're going to have a translating digipeater,
>     that doubles the traffic on the output side from all the
>     dual-protocol stations. And it would be quite difficult to write a
>     good OpenTRAC<->APRS translator, because some single OpenTRAC
>     packets map into multiple APRS packets, and not cleanly (for
>     example, how is an OpenTRAC sub-entity represented in APRS? how
>     are APRS Telemetry packets mapped into OpenTRAC entity values when
>     there is no fixed meaning of APRS telemetry fields?). I know this,
>     because my YAAC program speaks and receives both protocols, and
>     has a tough time coming up with consistent data display to
>     end-users, and that's just doing the merge at the presentation
>     layer, rather than translating and re-transmitting.
>
>     And promoting OpenTRAC still doesn't deal with the existing
>     hardware base of APRS-only devices (ex.: Kenwood D700's don't do
>     OpenTRAC natively). For that matter, do all the existing
>     digipeaters behave correctly when asked to digipeat an OpenTRAC
>     packet (using APRS-standard New-N digipeat aliases)?
>
>     And no one has written an OpenTRAC I-gate yet.
>
>     Interesting ideas for a future or parallel project, but it doesn't
>     work with APRS As She Is Written.
>
>     Andrew, KA2DDO
>     author of YAAC
>
>     On Monday, February 14, 2022, 03:29:42 PM EST, Jason Rausch
>     <jason at ke4nyv.com> wrote:
>
>
>     >> What makes more sense is to look at replacing APRS with OpenTrac.
>
>     I absolutely support this and have thought this was the way to go
>     for years.  I know people are worried about backwards
>     compatibility support.  Can we viably run dual protocol on the
>     same channel as people migrate over?  With the exception of
>     Scott's example of the balloon running OpenTrac and choking some
>     server code, I haven't seen a good example of why we couldn't. 
>     Maybe we propose an alternate frequency, such as 144.790 for
>     OpenTrac and then merge the data together at the digipeater
>     level.  Dual port TNC, dual radios.
>
>     Remi VE2YAG and I are dusting off some tracker/digipeater hardware
>     designs based on the ESP32.  I'm sure we could look into the idea
>     of creating a dual port version to support something like this.
>
>     Just a thought.
>
>     Jason Rausch
>     www.ke4nyv.com <http://www.ke4nyv.com>
>
>
>     On Monday, February 14, 2022, 12:05:14 AM EST, Gregg Wonderly
>     <gregg at wonderly.org> wrote:
>
>
>     Ultimately, the concepts of APRS are interesting.  But the
>     implementation is problematic for future use.  What makes more
>     sense is to look at replacing APRS with OpenTrac.  It is much more
>     rigorous in design, less bandwidth and trivial to use on small
>     processor systems where data processing needs to be memory and
>     power friendly.
>
>     Gregg Wonderly
>     W5GGW
>
>     Sent from my iPhone
>
>>     On Feb 13, 2022, at 11:20 AM, Jeff Hochberg <jeff at w4jew.com> wrote:
>>
>>     
>>
>>     Hello,
>>
>>
>>     My name is Jeff Hochberg (W4JEW) and I’m located in Atlanta, GA.
>>
>>
>>     I chatted with Steve Dimse earlier this week about what I am
>>     about to cover here. He asked that I ensure this is an open
>>     discussion with aprssig, hence the reason for this message.
>>
>>
>>     I’ve been a member of the aprssig mailing list for quite some
>>     time now but haven’t been an active participant - primarily due
>>     to other commitments, work, and most importantly family.
>>
>>
>>     Some of you might be familiar with the annual Appalachian Trail
>>     Golden Packet (ATGP) event that Bob Bruninga started back in 2009.
>>
>>
>>     Bob and I connected shortly after he was first diagnosed with
>>     cancer and he asked me to take on managing ATGP just shy of 3.5
>>     years ago. Not only have I been managing the group, I’ve been
>>     coordinating the annual event, and running a new monthly ATGP
>>     Knowledge Share series that is focused entirely on APRS.
>>
>>
>>     APRS has been at the forefront of my time with amateur radio and
>>     is something that I am extremely passionate about. I, along with
>>     a core group within ATGP have been very concerned with the future
>>     of APRS and have been watching closely to see what would happen
>>     after Bob left us.
>>
>>
>>     With Kenwood’s uncertain demise - discontinuing the TH-D74 and
>>     not making any official statement of their future on continuing
>>     with production of the TH-D72 and TM-D710 has left a dark spot on
>>     APRS. Granted, there are other manufacturers that continue to
>>     support APRS and there’s a strong community of hardware
>>     manufacturers that are still shipping TNCs, as well as a wide
>>     array of open source and closed source software projects
>>     (Direwolf, APRSIS32, PinPoint APRS, to name a few.
>>
>>
>>     Yaesu’s implementation of APRS is probably the strongest outside
>>     of Kenwood - which isn’t saying much. Icom’s conscious decision
>>     to not include analog APRS in their radios baffles me. And there
>>     are other manufacturers such as AnyTone that are limping along
>>     with half-rate implementations of APRS that do more to harm the
>>     ham community than help. Thankfully they seem to realize the
>>     error in their ways and have been making a slightly concerted
>>     effort to remedy their sophomoric attempts with the original
>>     AT-D878 and AT-578 with the recent release of the AT-D878UV2 Plus
>>     and the AT-D578UV3 Plus - both still leave a lot to be desired.
>>
>>
>>     I think we can all agree that the APRS standard stagnated and has
>>     largely remained the same for the past several years. We’ve been
>>     stuck at the current version for far too long and have fallen out
>>     of the limelight. The time has come for that to change!
>>
>>
>>     And I know there’s some that feel as though it’s time for APRS to
>>     publish a final chapter and close the book forever as there’s
>>     been advancements in other areas of amateur radio that overlap
>>     APRS either in part or in full.
>>
>>
>>     I couldn’t disagree more strongly! There’s plenty of lifeblood
>>     left and there’s tremendous opportunity to bring it back with a
>>     vengeance!
>>
>>
>>     What APRS needs is an overhaul. The standard needs to be updated
>>     to include relatively recent extensions as well as a group of
>>     people that are invested in driving it’s future. I’ve been
>>     reading through an active discussion on a replacement for APRS -
>>     that is also something that could be considered. Truthfully,
>>     there are lots of directions this can go in.
>>
>>
>>     What is needed at this juncture is an organization - more
>>     specifically a non-profit 501(c)3 corporation that will represent
>>     APRS at a global scale that is focused on a renaissance as well
>>     as adding to an already strong foundation that can compliment the
>>     some of the latest and most exciting areas of amateur radio
>>     including, but not limited to, the likes of the M17 Project.
>>
>>
>>     John and I are putting forth a motion.
>>
>>
>>     This email serves as an official proposal to kick off this
>>     effort. I, Jeff Hochberg, along with John Tarbox (WA1KLI) are
>>     proposing the creation of a 501(c)3 non-profit corporation who’s
>>     charter is to re-establish APRS as a kingpin of the ham radio
>>     world. To take on the trademark and the aprs.org
>>     <http://aprs.org> domain, with the mission to ensure that APRS
>>     continues to thrive.
>>
>>
>>     But that’s not all. This corporation will have an open door
>>     policy where any like-minded licensed amateur radio operators
>>     around the world can join provided they are committed to advance
>>     APRS into version 2.0 and beyond!
>>
>>
>>     While this is still very early stages, it is something that we
>>     are willing to commit to 100% and begin with the formation of an
>>     organization immediately.
>>
>>
>>     There are two other prominent members of the APRS community that
>>     we are all familiar with (and are also members of aprssig) that
>>     have also shown interest, but I do not want to name them without
>>     their permission.
>>
>>
>>     Who is Jeff Hochberg? That's an excellent question!
>>
>>     Just to share a little bit more about me... I live in Atlanta,
>>     Georgia with my wife Charity and my stepdaughter Tatam.
>>
>>
>>     I currently hold a General Class license and have been a licensed
>>     amateur radio operator since 2015 (originally KM4KPI). I am
>>     currently pursuing my Amateur Extra license and intend to take
>>     the exam in the not so distant future.
>>
>>
>>     I’ve been working in the Information Technology sector (specially
>>     in the networking and security world) for the past 26 years. I am
>>     a Field Solutions Engineer (a.k.a. "Sales Engineer") focused on
>>     enterprise customers for one of the world's leading cloud
>>     providers - a name many of you are likely familiar with.
>>
>>
>>     In addition to sales engineering, I also have several years
>>     experience in the realms of technical marketing and business
>>     development and a proven track record of solving complex problems
>>     for some of the worlds largest organizations in the Fortune 100
>>     and Fortune 50.
>>
>>
>>     John has been a ham since the 1960s and holds an Amateur Extra
>>     license (WA1KLI). He has worked in the IT field his entire career
>>     as a programmer, IT Manager, and currently as Adjunct Faculty in
>>     Computer Science. He is a life member of ARRL and a member of
>>     Quarter Century Wireless Association (QCWA). He has participated
>>     in ATGP for over ten years, first from Sugarloaf Mountain in
>>     Maine and, more recently, from Mount Washington in NH.
>>
>>
>>     John resides in Phillips, Maine, and in 2020 earned an MS in CIS
>>     with a concentration in Cybersecurity from Boston University.
>>     During 2019-2020 he served with Americorps as a Digital Literacy
>>     Instructor.
>>
>>
>>     Besides ham radio, John enjoys Sailing and outdoor activities
>>     with his partner, Carolyn KC1MGI. SOTA and POTA figure
>>     prominently in his plans for this summer.
>>
>>
>>     You can review our profiles on LinkedIn to learn more about our
>>     professional backgrounds:
>>
>>
>>     https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffhochberg
>>     <https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffhochberg>
>>
>>     https://www.linkedin.com/in/tarbox/
>>     <https://www.linkedin.com/in/tarbox/>
>>
>>
>>     This new organization can use the help and support of all the
>>     hams who have worked so hard to make APRS what it is today, as
>>     well as those who will join us to advance and promote APRS as we
>>     go forward.
>>
>>
>>     We intend for this organization to be as /open and inclusive as
>>     possible/, and thus we welcome all who wish to join us on this
>>     exciting journey to make APRS move forward in the 21st century.
>>
>>
>>     As mentioned, there are a couple of others in the APRS community
>>     that are actively giving consideration to joining John and I, but
>>     wanted to take additional time to give it thought. It was
>>     important to John and I to make sure we reached out to aprssig as
>>     quickly as possible.
>>
>>
>>     We are excited at the prospect of this opportunity and hope we
>>     can count on your support!
>>
>>
>>     Please do not hesitate to let John Tarbox and or myself know if
>>     you have any questions or concerns via this thread on aprssig. At
>>     the request of Steve Dimse, it is important that all discussions
>>     related to this matter remain in the public domain.
>>
>>
>>     Thank you for your consideration!
>>
>>
>>     Best Regards,
>>
>>
>>     Jeff Hochberg - W4JEW
>>
>>     Atlanta, GA
>>
>>     w4jew at arrl.net <mailto:w4jew at arrl.net>
>>
>>
>>     John Tarbox
>>
>>     Philips, ME
>>
>>     wa1kli at arrl.net <mailto:wa1kli at arrl.net>
>>
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     aprssig mailing list
>>     aprssig at lists.tapr.org
>>     http://lists.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/aprssig_lists.tapr.org
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