[aprssig] 6M APRS via meteor scatter forum?
Ron VE8RT
ve8rt at yknwt.ca
Sun Oct 15 16:50:20 EDT 2017
Hi Ev,
I have been surprised by how well 30M has worked, I've run a 5W
WSPR (VE8TEA) station all summer as we were requested to support the
CG3EXP expedition through the north west passage. But it does have
significant blackouts up here. Still, we're trying to encourage a few
more operators north of 60 to set up stations on 30M, and we're looking
into whether we could get some remote receive only stations online.
One of the biggest challenges I've had over the years, and I've
been picking away at this problem for years, is getting people who
haven't experienced the north to understand what we're up against.
These challenges include and are not limited to:
- long distances between stations (hundreds of kilometres, some over
a thousand, Yellowknife, Inuvik, Iqualiut, never mind Edmonton,
Calgary, Vancouver, or points in Alaska)
- D layer absorbtion is much worse in the polar regions
- we're inside the polar oval, I've seen a remarkable difference in
HF propagation between here and Hay River less than 200 km south of
here (Field day counts are in tens of contacts here)
- there are two repeaters in VE8, one here in Yellowknife, one down
the road an hours drive
- if the fibre optic line gets dug up somewhere in Alberta we'll be
without, or compromised, local cell phone, internet, cable TV, ...
until its re-routed or repaired
- we're lucky, we have a paved road all the way to Yellowknife,
points north might have a winter ice road
This summer, and we're at solar minimum still, had very poor HF
propagation most of the time. I've considered ALE, its probably very
useful at lower latitudes but here I think it would only confirm what
we'd figure out pretty quick anyway, that we're not getting out on HF.
I HF as having a role, when conditions permit, what I was searching for
was something that would get even minimal communications through
regardless of solar or geomagnetic conditions.
BTW, I'm very much enjoying this exchange, another aspect of remote
living is not having as much opportunity to discuss ideas. I see
another e-mail from you, I'll answer it promptly.
Ron VE8RT DP22
On Sun, 15 Oct 2017 19:59:25 +0000 (UTC)
Ev Tupis <w2ev at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi Ron,
> Again, I have to ask about your goal. Experimentation with AX.25 over meteor paths is one thing (I've had a lot of fun with it), but if you are trying to get EmComm messages across long distances then you're better off thinking differently.
> Instead "regular APRS" on 30 meters is an awesome resource. Yes, the band closes for DX from time-to-time (like all bands do), but it has an established network that you can plug into.
>
> If 30 meters is a bad choice, then look at an entirely different resource, such as the ALE (Automatic Link Establishment) system at http://www.HFLink.com
> Cheers,Ev, W2EV
>
>
> On Sunday, October 15, 2017, 2:45:43 PM EDT, Ron VE8RT <ve8rt at yknwt.ca> wrote:
>
> Thanks for clearing that up.
>
> I must do some more reading and online research. I'd like to get an
> idea of a typical delay to get an APRS message through, and whether
> dead times would be tens of minutes or hours.
>
> Ron VE8RT
>
> On Sun, 15 Oct 2017 12:41:15 -0400
> Robert Bruninga <bruninga at usna.edu> wrote:
>
> > My understanding is that Meteor Scatter is very specular reflection so it
> > is very dependent on exact geometer and frequency. So my guess is that it
> > might work for the occasional big burn meteor, but that is not where the
> > throughput and reliability of MS is foiund. That is found in taking
> > fortuitous advantage of the thousands of smallers meteors during the day.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 9:51 AM, Ron VE8RT <ve8rt at yknwt.ca> wrote:
> >
> > > Ooooh! Stupid simple idea just came to mind for emcomm APRS.
> > >
> > > Assumption 1, the destination city for the emcomm traffic has
> > > working high power FM broadcast stations on air.
> > >
> > > Assumption 2, a MS path for the FM station between the originating
> > > station and the destination station is also a working path for the 6M
> > > traffic.
> > >
> > > If both are true then there is no need for high duty cycle
> > > transmissions to determine if a path exists, a separate receiver tuned
> > > to the destination FM transmitter could trigger a data exchange.
> > >
> > > A question though is how small is the MS path footprint, how close
> > > does the igate station need to be to the FM station used?
> > >
> > > Ron VE8RT
> > >
> > > On Sun, 15 Oct 2017 11:11:21 +0000 (UTC)
> > > Ev Tupis <w2ev at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Ron,If you are interested in specifically using APRS for MS on 6
> > > meters, you will need to setup both ends of the path, just as you have
> > > done. There is little-to-no 6 meter APRS activity on 6 meters to use as a
> > > "base".
> > > > Operation requires a transceiver and/or amplifier that is capable of 50%
> > > duty cycle (use a Fan!). One station will TX for 15 seconds while the
> > > other one RX's. Clearly, you must coordinate TX and RX intervals.
> > > >
> > > > The more power you transmit, the easier it is to make a contact (a
> > > general principle that transcends MS-specific communication).
> > > > Some degree of success has been had with as little as 25 watts + 10 dBi
> > > antenna (250 watts EIRP) at 6 meters.
> > > > Success is largely defined within the "time dimension" (being able to
> > > operate for long periods of time). Since everything is computer
> > > controlled, it is possible to select a seldom used frequency and let it run
> > > over night...taking advantage of the spike in MS ionization that occurs
> > > from 3 AM to 9 AM local time. This works well if you are allowed to run
> > > under "automatic control" (like an FM repeater does) rather than being
> > > forced to have a human operator present at all time.
> > > >
> > > > FM APRS works well. So does the SSB mode. You can experiment to see
> > > which provides a superior experience.
> > > > 'hope this has helped as a bit of a primer.
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,Ev, W2EV
> > > >
> > > > On Saturday, October 14, 2017, 8:21:12 PM EDT, Ron VE8RT <
> > > ve8rt at yknwt.ca> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > I've re-joined the APRS SIG forum.
> > > >
> > > > And I'm doing a little shopping for 6M gear. I have a FT 726 that
> > > > is being shipped to me from the US, Joel at RF Connection offered it to
> > > > me for free, along with additional modules, and manuals, for the cost
> > > > of shipping. And I have a new in the box Cushcraft 5el yagi thats been
> > > > in the back shed since I bought it. With short coax run up the tower I
> > > > should be fine without a masthead preamp.
> > > >
> > > > The National APRS Meteorscatter test that Bob mentioned would be
> > > > interesting to look at. Of particular interest is the useable range,
> > > > we need a thousand kilometres to get into Edmonton from here, the
> > > > closest major city. This part of the Northwest Territories is
> > > > relatively flat, the Yukon on the other hand is mountainous and I'd
> > > > like to know how well this would work in the mountain valleys.
> > > >
> > > > Yuuri, VY1YU / JS6SHS, who ran the earlier HF propagation
> > > > experiments has been e-mailed to see if he'd be interested in trying a
> > > > MS APRS experiment. He's gotten back to me and is interested in
> > > > setting up some tests.
> > > >
> > > > What additional hardware, other than the transceiver and antenna,
> > > > should I have to try this? I've been tinkering with Arduinos, Cory had
> > > > mentioned earlier, but I'm not sure where they fit in.
> > > >
> > > > If there is anything that I need to buy out of the US I'd like to
> > > > get it ordered and on it's way to Joel at RF Connection to have it
> > > > included in the package he's sending me.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for your help!
> > > >
> > > > Ron VE8RT (30M WSPR as VE8TEA)
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 16:45:45 -0400
> > > > Cory Vickruck <crvickru at lakeheadu.ca> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Also I would be happy to setup an igate for him to test. I think I
> > > might be
> > > > > just out of range however. I am in thunder bay Ontario
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Oct 12, 2017 4:31 PM, "Cory Vickruck" <crvickru at lakeheadu.ca>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > After reading a bit more about the topic I am interested in trying
> > > it out.
> > > > > > How much power would be enough for reliable packets at 6m APRS?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Oct 12, 2017 2:36 PM, "Cory Vickruck" <crvickru at lakeheadu.ca>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Could PSK-31 be a option? Maybe fsq would be a good option as it
> > > can be
> > > > > >> interfaced with an Arduino.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> On Oct 12, 2017 2:12 PM, "Robert Bruninga" <bruninga at usna.edu>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> We have had great success with APRS Meteor Scatter on 6 meters, but
> > > I have
> > > > > >> not done it since 1996? Maybe its time for some new blood. Let me
> > > see if
> > > > > >> I can find the results of our first National APRS Meteroscatter
> > > test.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Everyone, meet Ron, VE8RT who needs to communicate probably by APRS
> > > using
> > > > > >> Meteorscatter from the great Northwest... He currently is not on
> > > the
> > > > > >> APRSSIG and so reply here so we can see the interest, and I will
> > > forward
> > > > > >> any useful replies to him. Bob, WB4aPR
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > > > >> From: Ron VE8RT [ve8rt at yknwt.ca]
> > > > > >> Subject: 6M APRS via meteor scatter forum?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Hi Bob,
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I'm looking for a forum, if there is one, on meteor scatter and
> > > APRS.
> > > > > >> I'm one of less than a score of active amateur radio operators here
> > > in the
> > > > > >> Northwest Territories of Canada. The majority of amateur radio
> > > activity
> > > > > >> is here in Yellowknife (the capital), with distances of over a
> > > thousand
> > > > > >> kilometres seperating some of us. HF propagation is generally poor
> > > and
> > > > > >> unreliable, so I'm looking into 6M meteor scatter APRS or other
> > > digital
> > > > > >> modes for emergency communications.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I had joined the TAPR APRS SIG forum for a few days, having
> > > posted my
> > > > > >> introduction and my interest in meteor scatter APRS, but it didn't
> > > > > >> generate any replies (so I unsubscribed).
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Would you have any suggestions?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Thanks,
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Ron VE8RT in DP22
> > > > > >> --
> > > > > >> Ron VE8RT <ve8rt at yknwt.ca>
> > > > > >> _______________________________________________
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> > > > > >> aprssig at tapr.org
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> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Ron VE8RT <ve8rt at yknwt.ca>
> > > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ron VE8RT <ve8rt at yknwt.ca>
> > > _______________________________________________
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>
>
> --
> Ron VE8RT <ve8rt at yknwt.ca>
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--
Ron VE8RT <ve8rt at yknwt.ca>
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