[aprssig] TAPR Dayton Solar Talk

Thu May 26 13:58:32 EDT 2011

In NWVT, which is more less the most highly settled, gentrified area in the state we still have instances of 2-10,000 people being without power for 3-4 day stretches. Your numbers don't work here. My son, in Mt. Laurel, NJ was without power for almost a full day just last week, he lost $200+ in spoiled frozen food.

I question the "triple" estimate in going battery. My 40 KW/24v battery bank went in a year ago and it cost me about $6K. As for "filling up my basement with batteries" ... my 40KW bank is 12 2V cells (7"x9"x25" each) arranged as two rows of six  in a ventilated box  56" x 24" x 30" .  Unlike when I started 20 years ago, most larger inverters come already setup for grid tie/disconnect. What that adds to its cost is no more than $3-400.

You have a lot of good information here, but I feel you are under estimating the potential for breakdown of the power infrastructure. What is the estimated power outage time for OK City, Joplin, etc .. a lot of good grid tied would do for houses in those regions untouched by the tornadoes. Here in the NE we had an ice storm that literally crushed miles and miles of Hydro Quebec's high voltage transmission towers, a dozen or so years ago, that left locals without power for over a week and a few miles north in Quebec, thousands of people were without power for more than a month. Granted these are extremes of weather, but there's a lot of that going around lately.

I was more or less forced to go off-grid by how much they wanted to connect me up. I started small with 300 watts of panels and some surplus batteries. I expanded from there. I like the total independence.

If someone is really wanting to cut their carbon footprint and reduce their e-bill, they can do it a heck of a lot more cheaply by examining all their electric appliances, researching them, and when they need replacing spend extra for energy efficiency. Example, I bought a Staber 2000 series clothes washer for $900 10 years ago whose water and power usage is 1/3rd of its competitors at the time. Its only in the last 3-4 years that the competitors have caught up and my Staber is still going strong. Of course there's all  the incandescent bulbs that can be replaced with compact PLs ... and don't forget about installing cutoff switches to devices that draw power even when they are 'off' !

cheers ... BBR, N1BQ

On May 22, 2011, at 6:43 PM, Bob Bruninga wrote:

>> However one point.. Grid tie solar is only 
>> functional when the grid is powered.
> 
> Thanks for bringing up this often very missleading topic...
> 
> But in my area, the grid is up 99.95% of the time.  The grid goes down maybe 4 hours a year or so (0.05%).  If the house load is about 3 kW with everything on normally, that is the loss of less than $2 worth of electricity.  Like any ham, Most of us already have many mechanisms for coping with those few hours.
> 
>> However you can go with solar that uses a 
>> battery bank and a whole house inverter that 
>> has a grid tie option, when the grid fails 
>> it switches your household to the inverter 
>> and draws from the battery bank...
> 
> But that is a major mistake that too many people make when thinking about solar.  It makes no economical sense to provide that $2 of power-out electricity per year by adding the additional $10,000 for the dual-inverter/charger and a wall of batteries.  There are much more economical approaches to back-up power than batteries...  And this has nothing to do with the economics of grid-tie solar.
> 
> For economical solar, one must completely separate their 99.95% use of economical power (solar) from their requirement for a few hours of backup power.  The optimum solutions for each are completely separate.  THough to some, it might be worth spending the additional $10,000 for a few hours of backup ($2 per year), but that is a completely separate issue from economical solar.
> 
>> like having an automatic transfer switch 
>> and generator but its an inverter and batteries 
>> charged by solar instead.
> 
> But be careful.  Off-grid systems (with battery storage)TRIPLE the cost of solar for the same energy production.  My recommendation is to think of solar for economical energy for the rest of your life, and then to think of a different economical approach to the few hours of power outage a year.  Such as ....  An inverter from your car system, a small $250 generator, a pair of car batteries and an inverter...etc...
> 
> Lots of ways other than throwing another $10,000 at the solar system for 4 hours ($2) worth of darkness a year.
> 
> In fact, it was that same idea of filling up my basement with batteries that was so uneconomical that it kept me out of solar for so long until I finally realized that batteries have nothing to do with economical solar power.
> 
> Separate the two issues in one's mind and then it is amazing how economical grid-tie solar becomes.
> 
>> Maybe in another 20 years I can afford it myself.. 
> 
> Another way to look at that, is... If you are paying $200 a month for electricity now, in 20 years, you will have spent $48,000 for electricity and have nothing to show for it.  But if you buy solar now, the government will buy HALF of it for you and for the rest of your life, you will OWN your entire energy generation system and have free energy for life.
> 
> That is why I am preaching so much.  My Ham radio background and interest in emergency power and batteries so completely masked the true value and economics of modern grid-tie solar for too long.  I want to help others see around that missconception...
> 
> Bob, Wb4APR
> 
>> From: Bob Bruninga
>> Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2011 9:56 AM
>> To: aprssig at tapr.org
>> Subject: [aprssig] TAPR Dayton Solar Talk
>> 
>> The AMSAT/TAPR banquet talk at Dayton was about Solar and emergency power 
>> for Ham radio.  In preparation, here are three ideas that amazed me that 
>> might amaze you:
>> 
>> 1) This week by googling solar panels, I found PRIME home solar (UL 
>> approved) 220 Watt panels going for $1.39 per watt! (compare that to $6/w 
>> contractor installed systems 2 years ago...)
>> 
>> 2) Even if you want to use bargain panels and bargain micro-grid-tie 
>> inverters, one way, is to pay a contractor to install the smallest fully 
>> approved and electrical-permitted solar system you can buy.  This  gets you 
>> fully legal, connected, grid-tied etc.  Then add as many panels and 
>> additional plug-in micro-grid inverters at your own DIY cost!
>> 
>> Just remember, to connect + to + in parallel, and + to - in series... and 
>> just plug in the DIY microinverters to the wall outlet.  (Note, the UL 
>> approved microinverters should be connected to a standard 20 amp breaker in 
>> your breaker box by a master electrician).
>> 
>> 3) Amazing angles!  No-longer does SOUTH matter!!!
>> 
>> I hope everyone here has had the fun of playing with the on-line PVWATTS for 
>> computing annual solar ouput over any conceivable arrangement of azimuth and 
>> elevation angles.  I just compared a pure EAST/WEST facing roof to the 
>> optimum South facing, just to see how bad it would be.   AMAZING!  Here is 
>> the PVWATTS page:
>> http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/calculators/PVWATTS/version1/
>> 
>> DRUM ROLL:  A DUE EAST facing roof (with a 20 degree tilt) will produce 85% 
>> of the annual power as the ideal tilted southern array.  Amazing...
>> 
>> BUT!!!  SO does the WEST side of the same house!  So, unlike the southern 
>> home that can only use HALF his roof for power*, the EAST/WEST facing 
>> homeowner can generate 170% more power than the sourthern facing owner 
>> because he has twice the room to put the panels!!!  (Roof size and shade are 
>> the #1 limits to homeowner 100% production of their annual electrical 
>> needs).
>> 
>> *But wait, there's more!  Next for grins, I used PVWATTS to tell the power 
>> output from the NORTH FACING side of the South Facing house.  Who would ever 
>> even think of doing this?  But if the ROOF tilt is the typical low profile 
>> 20 degrees, guess what?  The NORTH side of the roof can produce 60% (annual) 
>> of the south side!  So the homeowner with his low-profile southern roof 
>> maxed out with solar, can now increase his total annual output by 60% (with 
>> a double sized array (on a low tilt roof)). He produces nearly zero in the 
>> middle of winter from that side, but makes up the full 60% of his total 
>> capacity for that array in the summer!
>> 
>> Many hams who know that SOUTH IS BEST find it hard to accept this.  But do 
>> the PVWATTS calculations yourself.  Remember, the SUN comes up in the NE and 
>> sets in the NW during the summer when the days are 14 to 16 hours long. 
>> This means that for the 3 hours in the morning and 3 hours in the evening, 
>> the IDEAL Southern array is not even seeing the sun.  Sure, an east facing 
>> array will produce little in the winter, but for GRID-TIE, the ONLY thing 
>> that matters is ANNUAL total power.  and all these other directions make up 
>> for their poor winter performance by making MORE power in the other months.
>> 
>> Even laying flat on the ground will produce 80% of the annual power (but be 
>> a maintenance issue... Any panel should be at at least 10 degrees to assure 
>> rain-cleaning).
>> 
>> Back to the EAST/WEST facing house... Doubling the array to get the added 
>> 160% may not have been cost effective in the past, but with DIY panels at 
>> $1/watt and DIY plug-in micro-grid inverters at about $0.30/W, it's so cheap 
>> to expand your array into less productive angles, why not!  DIY panels and 
>> added plug-in DIY microinverters can double the size of your "approved" 
>> array for probably 1/4 the original cost of your contractor installed 
>> system.
>> 
>> Putting panels on EVERYTHING until you get to 100% of your annual electrical 
>> load is the goal.  You can do it!  Look outside the "southern" box.  (But 
>> shade remains the #1 killer of even the greatest solar ambitions.  But as 
>> costs are so low, look again...)
>> 
>> Don't forget, the economics of homeowner solar is all due to GRID-TIE. 
>> There is not a single battery in the system.  Off-grid battery systems can 
>> only deliver about 33% of annual energy for the same $ investment plus the 
>> added burden of lifetime maintanance.  GRID-TIE is the only way to go (if 
>> you are on the grid)... Please see:
>> 
>> www.aprs.org/off-grid-maybe.html
>> 
>> Oh, and the BIGGEST FACTOR by far is the almost 50% Government Credits, 
>> Rebates and Grants that come right off the top of your installation costs. 
>> I would bet these are going to be gone in a year or two (my state has 
>> already reduced theirs by 1/3rd), beacuse the cost of home-solar produced 
>> power is now LESS than utility power (with the 50% incentives) and so 
>> EVERYONE is jumping into solar.  With tight budgets at all governmnet 
>> levels, do not expect these incentives to last.
>> 
>> Next week, I'll post slides from the AMSAT/TAPR solar talk.
>> 
>> Oh, and please come join the SolarDIY at yahoogroups.com discussion group made 
>> up mostly of HAMS going solar.
>> 
>> Bob, WB4APR
>> 
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