[aprssig] TAPR Dayton Solar Talk

KBØNLY kb0nly at mchsi.com
Sun May 22 19:01:37 EDT 2011

Where I live we usually get random outages that last 4-8 hours, the last one 
I had lasted five hours and I was on generator an hour after the outage to 
keep the kids happy with lights, tv, and a movie.

However the biggest problem I have with grid tie is no buy back program 
here, I can't spin my meter backwards feeding the grid to get credit or make 
money towards my bill.  All I can do is slow down my meter by supplementing 
solar to cover my usage.  Looking at my bill I average about $130 a month 
for power, its cheap here $.07 per kWh.  If I bought a system capable of 
supplying the power I use I would have a significant amount invested, so 
much so that even if I went grid tie and just supplemented my usage it would 
take many years to pay back the investment.  The cheapest systems I have 
been able to find are about $2 per watt on the panels for good quality units 
with a good manufacturer rep and warranty, then you have to buy the grid tie 
inverter.  I thought about putting in a 200 watt system to start just to 
supplement my shack use and offset my bill a bit, it comes with a 600 watt 
inverter so that I could add panels as I could afford, the problem I have 
there is many of these small towns don't have an up to date electrical code 
and permitting and such to allow connection of these is a hassle at best.

Small municipalities are opening their eyes to grid tie solar and eventually 
all of them will allow it.  But there is still the limiting factor that I 
could never utilize any extra power generated to pay for the system, I would 
literally be backfeeding any extra to the grid for little or nothing, if I 
stopped my meter then in theory I am making money because I am not 
accumulating any usage, but I can't spin the meter backwards to build equity 
to pay for the system.



-----Original Message----- 
From: Bob Bruninga
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2011 5:43 PM
To: TAPR APRS Mailing List
Subject: Re: [aprssig] TAPR Dayton Solar Talk

> However one point.. Grid tie solar is only
> functional when the grid is powered.

Thanks for bringing up this often very missleading topic...

But in my area, the grid is up 99.95% of the time.  The grid goes down maybe 
4 hours a year or so (0.05%).  If the house load is about 3 kW with 
everything on normally, that is the loss of less than $2 worth of 
electricity.  Like any ham, Most of us already have many mechanisms for 
coping with those few hours.

> However you can go with solar that uses a
> battery bank and a whole house inverter that
> has a grid tie option, when the grid fails
> it switches your household to the inverter
> and draws from the battery bank...

But that is a major mistake that too many people make when thinking about 
solar.  It makes no economical sense to provide that $2 of power-out 
electricity per year by adding the additional $10,000 for the 
dual-inverter/charger and a wall of batteries.  There are much more 
economical approaches to back-up power than batteries...  And this has 
nothing to do with the economics of grid-tie solar.

For economical solar, one must completely separate their 99.95% use of 
economical power (solar) from their requirement for a few hours of backup 
power.  The optimum solutions for each are completely separate.  THough to 
some, it might be worth spending the additional $10,000 for a few hours of 
backup ($2 per year), but that is a completely separate issue from 
economical solar.

> like having an automatic transfer switch
> and generator but its an inverter and batteries
> charged by solar instead.

But be careful.  Off-grid systems (with battery storage)TRIPLE the cost of 
solar for the same energy production.  My recommendation is to think of 
solar for economical energy for the rest of your life, and then to think of 
a different economical approach to the few hours of power outage a year. 
Such as ....  An inverter from your car system, a small $250 generator, a 
pair of car batteries and an inverter...etc...

Lots of ways other than throwing another $10,000 at the solar system for 4 
hours ($2) worth of darkness a year.

In fact, it was that same idea of filling up my basement with batteries that 
was so uneconomical that it kept me out of solar for so long until I finally 
realized that batteries have nothing to do with economical solar power.

Separate the two issues in one's mind and then it is amazing how economical 
grid-tie solar becomes.

> Maybe in another 20 years I can afford it myself..

Another way to look at that, is... If you are paying $200 a month for 
electricity now, in 20 years, you will have spent $48,000 for electricity 
and have nothing to show for it.  But if you buy solar now, the government 
will buy HALF of it for you and for the rest of your life, you will OWN your 
entire energy generation system and have free energy for life.

That is why I am preaching so much.  My Ham radio background and interest in 
emergency power and batteries so completely masked the true value and 
economics of modern grid-tie solar for too long.  I want to help others see 
around that missconception...

Bob, Wb4APR

>From: Bob Bruninga
>Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2011 9:56 AM
>To: aprssig at tapr.org
>Subject: [aprssig] TAPR Dayton Solar Talk
>The AMSAT/TAPR banquet talk at Dayton was about Solar and emergency power
>for Ham radio.  In preparation, here are three ideas that amazed me that
>might amaze you:
>1) This week by googling solar panels, I found PRIME home solar (UL
>approved) 220 Watt panels going for $1.39 per watt! (compare that to $6/w
>contractor installed systems 2 years ago...)
>2) Even if you want to use bargain panels and bargain micro-grid-tie
>inverters, one way, is to pay a contractor to install the smallest fully
>approved and electrical-permitted solar system you can buy.  This  gets you
>fully legal, connected, grid-tied etc.  Then add as many panels and
>additional plug-in micro-grid inverters at your own DIY cost!
>Just remember, to connect + to + in parallel, and + to - in series... and
>just plug in the DIY microinverters to the wall outlet.  (Note, the UL
>approved microinverters should be connected to a standard 20 amp breaker in
>your breaker box by a master electrician).
>3) Amazing angles!  No-longer does SOUTH matter!!!
>I hope everyone here has had the fun of playing with the on-line PVWATTS 
>computing annual solar ouput over any conceivable arrangement of azimuth 
>elevation angles.  I just compared a pure EAST/WEST facing roof to the
>optimum South facing, just to see how bad it would be.   AMAZING!  Here is
>the PVWATTS page:
>DRUM ROLL:  A DUE EAST facing roof (with a 20 degree tilt) will produce 85%
>of the annual power as the ideal tilted southern array.  Amazing...
>BUT!!!  SO does the WEST side of the same house!  So, unlike the southern
>home that can only use HALF his roof for power*, the EAST/WEST facing
>homeowner can generate 170% more power than the sourthern facing owner
>because he has twice the room to put the panels!!!  (Roof size and shade 
>the #1 limits to homeowner 100% production of their annual electrical
>*But wait, there's more!  Next for grins, I used PVWATTS to tell the power
>output from the NORTH FACING side of the South Facing house.  Who would 
>even think of doing this?  But if the ROOF tilt is the typical low profile
>20 degrees, guess what?  The NORTH side of the roof can produce 60% 
>of the south side!  So the homeowner with his low-profile southern roof
>maxed out with solar, can now increase his total annual output by 60% (with
>a double sized array (on a low tilt roof)). He produces nearly zero in the
>middle of winter from that side, but makes up the full 60% of his total
>capacity for that array in the summer!
>Many hams who know that SOUTH IS BEST find it hard to accept this.  But do
>the PVWATTS calculations yourself.  Remember, the SUN comes up in the NE 
>sets in the NW during the summer when the days are 14 to 16 hours long.
>This means that for the 3 hours in the morning and 3 hours in the evening,
>the IDEAL Southern array is not even seeing the sun.  Sure, an east facing
>array will produce little in the winter, but for GRID-TIE, the ONLY thing
>that matters is ANNUAL total power.  and all these other directions make up
>for their poor winter performance by making MORE power in the other months.
>Even laying flat on the ground will produce 80% of the annual power (but be
>a maintenance issue... Any panel should be at at least 10 degrees to assure
>Back to the EAST/WEST facing house... Doubling the array to get the added
>160% may not have been cost effective in the past, but with DIY panels at
>$1/watt and DIY plug-in micro-grid inverters at about $0.30/W, it's so 
>to expand your array into less productive angles, why not!  DIY panels and
>added plug-in DIY microinverters can double the size of your "approved"
>array for probably 1/4 the original cost of your contractor installed
>Putting panels on EVERYTHING until you get to 100% of your annual 
>load is the goal.  You can do it!  Look outside the "southern" box.  (But
>shade remains the #1 killer of even the greatest solar ambitions.  But as
>costs are so low, look again...)
>Don't forget, the economics of homeowner solar is all due to GRID-TIE.
>There is not a single battery in the system.  Off-grid battery systems can
>only deliver about 33% of annual energy for the same $ investment plus the
>added burden of lifetime maintanance.  GRID-TIE is the only way to go (if
>you are on the grid)... Please see:
>Oh, and the BIGGEST FACTOR by far is the almost 50% Government Credits,
>Rebates and Grants that come right off the top of your installation costs.
>I would bet these are going to be gone in a year or two (my state has
>already reduced theirs by 1/3rd), beacuse the cost of home-solar produced
>power is now LESS than utility power (with the 50% incentives) and so
>EVERYONE is jumping into solar.  With tight budgets at all governmnet
>levels, do not expect these incentives to last.
>Next week, I'll post slides from the AMSAT/TAPR solar talk.
>Oh, and please come join the SolarDIY at yahoogroups.com discussion group made
>up mostly of HAMS going solar.
>Bob, WB4APR
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