<div dir="ltr">Hi all,<div><br></div><div> Missed it - sorry; found it in the text.</div><div><br></div><div> FYI, the Nichols description of X and O modes has some very confusing analogies which are not correct. Please mail me offline for further discussion.</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers</div><div>Phil</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 1:47 PM Phil Erickson <<a href="mailto:phil.erickson@gmail.com">phil.erickson@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Hi all,<div><br></div><div> What is the relevance for attaching the Eric Nichols article from 2010?</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers</div><div>Phil</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 1:45 PM Kristina Collins <<a href="mailto:kvc2@case.edu" target="_blank">kvc2@case.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>Some notes from this morning's telecon and following discussion... There's more not covered here which John will be incorporating into the next version of the spec. Email me if you'd like to join the weekly telecon for the low-cost PSWS system, which is held Thursdays at 10am EDT. </div><div><br></div><div>1) We should clarify what a node is, and is not. In current conception, a node is an experiment being conducted at a location. A user may have multiple different experiments running - for example, one TangerineSDR and one GrapeSSR (custom-built low-cost PSWS) at one location. In this case, the TangerineSDR is a node and the GrapeSSR is a node. All the datasets being collected by the TangerineSDR - magnetometer, temp, lightning, etc. - are associated with the node number for that station. Similarly, all of the frequencies being measured by the GrapeSSR - all WWV and CHU frequencies - will be associated with the node number for that GrapeSSR. </div><div><br></div><div>2) It should be noted for those not hanging out on the low-cost/Doppler side of the PSWS project that there are two types of system (so far) collecting Doppler shift data: (A) John's custom board (the aforementioned GrapeSSR, so named because it comes in bunches and because the data ferments into something very nice) and (B) ham rigs collecting data by a method similar to we did for the Festival of Frequency Measurement. This latter set of stations is essentially its own experiment type; we have a few pilot stations running now. As a group, I've been referring to these ham rigs as the Frequency Analysis Network (FAN). A FAN page will be added to the HamSCI website soon. </div><div><br></div><div>3) There will be more characters added to the node naming description in order to address the different types of nodes. Again, so far there are three: the Tangerine, the Grape, and regular ol' ham rigs. Rather than these having just node numbers, we can give them alphanumeric strings: for example, NT00087, NG00094, NH00189 might indicate a Tangerine, a Grape and a ham rig respectively. Additionally, we could add more resolution in these letters: I could see using NHG00189 to indicate a ham rig collecting Doppler data which is connected to a GPSDO, and NHN00189 to indicate one which does not have a GPSDO, for example. Adding a D for "development" would also be a way to avoid some of the issues discussed above. Eventually, we will likely want to incorporate more types of experiments. For instance, a station set up to measure X and O propagation (like the one described in KL7AJ's Dec 2010 QST article, attached) could be added in with its own alphanumeric designation in order to set apart its node ID. Bottom line: we have to stay flexible, as we'll be adding experiments and metadata later on that we won't think of now. </div><div><br></div><div>4) Important: We will not be using fldigi in the final version of the GrapeSSR. There will be a dedicated program for doing the data collection. FAN stations may still use fldigi for data collection (might not be a bad thing to standardize around, Spectrumlab being another option for taking frequency estimation data) but I don't anticipate any nodes using fldigi to collect data from multiple frequencies at once. </div><div><br></div><div>73,</div><div>-KC</div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 7:49 AM Phil Erickson via TangerineSDR <<a href="mailto:tangerinesdr@lists.tapr.org" target="_blank">tangerinesdr@lists.tapr.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"><div dir="ltr">Hi Bill,<div><br></div><div> I'll reply off-list with Digital RF information, so as not to use bandwidth here.</div><div><br></div><div>73</div><div>Phil W1PJE</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 7:47 AM Bill Liles via TangerineSDR <<a href="mailto:tangerinesdr@lists.tapr.org" target="_blank">tangerinesdr@lists.tapr.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"><div dir="ltr"><div>Thanks for all the replies.</div><div><br></div><div>My interest is doing oblique ionosondes from transmitters of opportunity, including ionosondes. Thus, I want to separate the X and O wave signals. Also, I want to see how the path direction (AZ and EL) changes with time and from the great circle path. This helps with understanding TIDs, especially if I can have multiple sites join in collects.</div><div><br></div><div>Thus the requirement for a vector sensor antenna, so actually have 6 antennas.<br></div><div><br></div><div>I guess I will be using the DRF format since I would like to collect I/Q and time from each antenna at each site. Do DRF files have a separate file naming convention?<br></div><div><br></div><div>It is important to associate which data is associated with which antenna so can combine the data properly to get polarization, AZ and EL.</div><div><br></div><div>Thank you.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Bill NQ6Z<br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 12:40 AM John Gibbons via TangerineSDR <<a href="mailto:tangerinesdr@lists.tapr.org" target="_blank">tangerinesdr@lists.tapr.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Being we don't know the nature of Bill's data collection yet, let's get all the data collection requirements straight before we jump into the solution space to solve the problem...</div><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">That's the intent of this document - to flush out and to understand ALL of the experiments going on and create a database that can ultimately handle them. No one understands them all yet.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">I don't know anything that has been decided for the Tangerine Project which is why they will define their portion of the project.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Bill's project is another example of this. Multiple nodes at the same location may fix one problem, but it creates others. Not appropriate at this stage to do that yet.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Let's get the data collection document to a level of completion that we're all happy with first. Then we can understand and solve the overall data collection problem.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">John N8OBJ</div><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div><div><div>John C. Gibbons<br></div>Director - Sears Undergraduate Design Laboratory<br></div>Dept. of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science</div></div>Case Western Reserve University <br></div><div>10900 Euclid Ave, <span style="font-size:12.8px">Glennan 314</span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12.8px">Cleveland, Ohio 44106-7071</span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12.8px"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12.8px">Phone </span><a style="color:rgb(17,85,204);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12.8px" href="tel:216-368-2816" value="+12163684572" target="_blank">(216) 368-2816</a><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12.8px"> FAX </span><a style="color:rgb(17,85,204);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12.8px" href="tel:216-368-6888" value="+12163686888" target="_blank">(216) 368-6888</a><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12.8px"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12.8px">E-mail: </span><a style="color:rgb(17,85,204);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12.8px" href="mailto:jcg66@case.edu" target="_blank">jcg66@case.edu</a><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12.8px"><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 12:14 AM Rob Wiesler via TangerineSDR <<a href="mailto:tangerinesdr@lists.tapr.org" target="_blank">tangerinesdr@lists.tapr.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">On Wed, May 06, 2020 at 23:25:41 -0400, John Gibbons wrote:<br>
> Your station is given a node number to define its location. So yes, you<br>
> have a single node number.<br>
><br>
> If the receivers are coordinated to take their data all at the same time,<br>
> you would have a single file with (I'm guessing) 6 frequency measurements<br>
> and 6 amplitude measurements for the 6 receivers per sample instance (with<br>
> a timestamp that goes with it).<br>
> This would be contained all within 1 file for the given (WWV) frequency<br>
> being measured and submitted daily.<br>
<br>
If 6 copies of fldigi (or any program) are writing to the same file,<br>
you're going to have data corruption. There are four reasonable ways to<br>
proceed:<br>
<br>
- Add some field to the name of the file that fldigi's writing to, so<br>
you're writing to 6 files per day, one from each process, then somehow<br>
tell fldigi what value of that field to use. The best way to do that<br>
probably involves an environment variable that fldigi reads. Then<br>
relax or work around the one-upload-per-day-per-node restriction<br>
somehow.<br>
- Have 6 different nodes, and somehow tell fldigi which node it is. The<br>
best way to do that probably involves an environment variable that<br>
fldigi reads. Since all nodes have exactly the same metadata<br>
(right?), I don't think you'd even have to modify John's metadata<br>
directory scheme. This is probably saner than the previous option.<br>
- Instead of having fldigi write to a file directly, have it send its<br>
measurements to a daemon via a UNIX socket (or a TCP socket bound to<br>
127.0.0.1). The daemon then takes care of reading the metadata,<br>
creating the .csv files, and rotating them each UTC day. This doesn't<br>
involve any environment variables (so long as only one node is used<br>
and the metadata is all the same), but would effectively undo all the<br>
effort John went through to get his changes upstreamed. Still, I<br>
think this is the sanest option so far. Actually, I proposed<br>
something like this very early in the project, when David was setting<br>
up the first prototype of the system, and I was shot down because it<br>
seemed too complicated. If you want to go this route, I can write the<br>
code - it'll take a fraction of a Saturday or Sunday to go from zero<br>
to having a finished pair of packages (one for the modifications to<br>
fldigi, another for the daemon).<br>
- Run fldigi as 6 different users, all belonging to the same set of<br>
groups, each with their own unique home directory. Then they can<br>
share or not share metadata and/or node IDs as desired. This is the<br>
least sane option, but (when using different nodes) requires no<br>
changes to existing and planned code.<br>
<br>
I wrote the above list under the assumption that it is okay for the<br>
antenna that generated each record not to be associated with that<br>
record. I did that intentionally for the sake of argument only.<br>
Actually, I don't think that's okay at all, and there needs to be a<br>
different node for each antenna (because the metadata must be<br>
different). Probably Phil and/or Nathaniel should jump in and tell us<br>
what they want/need.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
TangerineSDR mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:TangerineSDR@lists.tapr.org" target="_blank">TangerineSDR@lists.tapr.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/tangerinesdr_lists.tapr.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/tangerinesdr_lists.tapr.org</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
-- <br>
TangerineSDR mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:TangerineSDR@lists.tapr.org" target="_blank">TangerineSDR@lists.tapr.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/tangerinesdr_lists.tapr.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/tangerinesdr_lists.tapr.org</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
-- <br>
TangerineSDR mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:TangerineSDR@lists.tapr.org" target="_blank">TangerineSDR@lists.tapr.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/tangerinesdr_lists.tapr.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/tangerinesdr_lists.tapr.org</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr">----<br>Phil Erickson<br><a href="mailto:phil.erickson@gmail.com" target="_blank">phil.erickson@gmail.com</a><br></div>
-- <br>
TangerineSDR mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:TangerineSDR@lists.tapr.org" target="_blank">TangerineSDR@lists.tapr.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/tangerinesdr_lists.tapr.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/tangerinesdr_lists.tapr.org</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr">----<br>Phil Erickson<br><a href="mailto:phil.erickson@gmail.com" target="_blank">phil.erickson@gmail.com</a><br></div>
</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">----<br>Phil Erickson<br><a href="mailto:phil.erickson@gmail.com" target="_blank">phil.erickson@gmail.com</a><br></div>