<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">I am also looking for a C implementation of the algorithm as I will most likely be running 4 instances if it (at the same time) and the RasPi3B+ will most likely choke on trying to do that in python.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">John N8OBJ</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><br></div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div><div><div>John C. Gibbons<br></div>Director - Sears Undergraduate Design Laboratory<br></div>Dept. of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science</div></div>Case Western Reserve University <br></div><div>10900 Euclid Ave, <span style="font-size:12.8px">Glennan 314</span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12.8px">Cleveland, Ohio 44106-7071</span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12.8px"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12.8px">Phone </span><a href="tel:216-368-2816" value="+12163684572" style="color:rgb(17,85,204);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12.8px" target="_blank">(216) 368-2816</a><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12.8px"> FAX </span><a href="tel:216-368-6888" value="+12163686888" style="color:rgb(17,85,204);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12.8px" target="_blank">(216) 368-6888</a><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12.8px"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12.8px">E-mail: </span><a href="mailto:jcg66@case.edu" style="color:rgb(17,85,204);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12.8px" target="_blank">jcg66@case.edu</a><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12.8px"><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 1:12 PM Engelke, Bill via TangerineSDR <<a href="mailto:tangerinesdr@lists.tapr.org">tangerinesdr@lists.tapr.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hello Aiden & Nathaniel:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I looked into working with files in fldigi – it is possible but it is not easily used with the type of data we will get from the TangerineSDR data engine. It expects wav files or mp3 files. I don’t see a way to use it with I/Q data. I would
rather not implement an elaborate work-around involving creating & passing files, etc.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I appreciate the Skylar is implementing something in python for the freq estimation algorithm, but I am hoping someone could volunteer to provide me this algorithm in the c language so that I can integrate it into the mainctl part of the
TangerineSDR. (HELP!) … anyone?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">-73- Bill AB4EJ<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> TangerineSDR <<a href="mailto:tangerinesdr-bounces@lists.tapr.org" target="_blank">tangerinesdr-bounces@lists.tapr.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dr. Nathaniel A. Frissell Ph.D. via TangerineSDR<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 20, 2020 6:46 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> TAPR TangerineSDR Modular Software Defined Radio <<a href="mailto:tangerinesdr@lists.tapr.org" target="_blank">tangerinesdr@lists.tapr.org</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Dr. Nathaniel A. Frissell Ph.D. <<a href="mailto:nathaniel.frissell@scranton.edu" target="_blank">nathaniel.frissell@scranton.edu</a>>; Skylar Dannhoff <<a href="mailto:sgd24@case.edu" target="_blank">sgd24@case.edu</a>>; David Kazdan <<a href="mailto:dxk10@cwru.edu" target="_blank">dxk10@cwru.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [TangerineSDR] Setting up DE for selected bands and sample rate<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks, Aidan.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">73 de Nathaniel<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> TangerineSDR <<a href="mailto:tangerinesdr-bounces@lists.tapr.org" target="_blank">tangerinesdr-bounces@lists.tapr.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Aidan Montare via TangerineSDR<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, April 18, 2020 10:21 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> TAPR TangerineSDR Modular Software Defined Radio <<a href="mailto:tangerinesdr@lists.tapr.org" target="_blank">tangerinesdr@lists.tapr.org</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Aidan Montare <<a href="mailto:aam141@case.edu" target="_blank">aam141@case.edu</a>>; Skylar Dannhoff <<a href="mailto:sgd24@case.edu" target="_blank">sgd24@case.edu</a>>; David Kazdan <<a href="mailto:dxk10@cwru.edu" target="_blank">dxk10@cwru.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [TangerineSDR] Setting up DE for selected bands and sample rate<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On the point (3a) on making frequency estimations with the IQ data: Skylar (KD9JPX) is working on implementing the frequency estimation algorithm in Python so that we can do some sensitivity analysis. The knowledge from her work could go
into efforts to do frequency estimation from IQ signals.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Nathaniel, fldigi does support reading from files, but I forget the specifics of this. I don't recall that it supports IQ.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 6:04 PM John Gibbons via TangerineSDR <<a href="mailto:tangerinesdr@lists.tapr.org" target="_blank">tangerinesdr@lists.tapr.org</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">Getting the estimator is easy - you know what it's supposed to be. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">In our case we're 1 KHz off the beacon frequency, so it will ALWAYS be 1.000KHz.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">John N8OBJ<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">John C. Gibbons<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Director - Sears Undergraduate Design Laboratory<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Dept. of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Case Western Reserve University <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">10900 Euclid Ave, <span style="font-size:9.5pt">Glennan 314</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:black">Cleveland, Ohio 44106-7071<br>
Phone </span><a href="tel:216-368-2816" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(17,85,204)">(216) 368-2816</span></a><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:black"> FAX </span><a href="tel:216-368-6888" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(17,85,204)">(216)
368-6888</span></a><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:black"><br>
E-mail: </span><a href="mailto:jcg66@case.edu" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(17,85,204)">jcg66@case.edu</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 3:25 PM Tom McDermott via TangerineSDR <<a href="mailto:tangerinesdr@lists.tapr.org" target="_blank">tangerinesdr@lists.tapr.org</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Nathaniel -<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Responding to question 1: the requirements for the DE putting out 8 channels sampled at 10 Hertz are similar to 8 channels<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">sampled at higher rates. The very low sample rate requires the FPGA low pass filters have many more taps, but I think<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">that's small-ish compared to other FPGA things.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Responding to #2 (from the original post) The algorithm in the paper would probably be implemented in the Local Host as software.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I'm not sure it would be easy nor useful to figure out how to compute that in FPGA as opposed to in CPU. But at 10 Hz sample rate,<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">that computation is likely feasible in CPU. There will be the initial collection of samples to get the estimator started, then it can update<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">frequently (i.e. 1 second rate).<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I can't comment on question 3.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-- Tom, N5EG<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 3:37 AM Dr. Nathaniel A. Frissell Ph.D. <<a href="mailto:nathaniel.frissell@scranton.edu" target="_blank">nathaniel.frissell@scranton.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Bill and Tom, <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">1. If we run the DE in the 8 channel mode for doing these measurements, do we think that will max out the data engine to prevent it from doing anything else?<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">3a. I agree that we probably do not want to emulate a sound card. I would like to see a program like FLDigi be able to accepts files or buffers. It would be good not only for the PSWS, but al also for doing post-processing of data in general.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">3b. We need the ability to collect both the raw spectrum and the derived frequency estimate. Exactly how to interpret and use these things is still an active area of research. Steve WA5FRF is actively working on this and is probably the
best person to work with on this right now.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Maybe David Kazdan can comment to address Tom’s question on needing 100 seconds of measurements.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">73 de Nathaniel W2NAF<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">— <br>
Dr. Nathaniel A. Frissell, Ph.D., W2NAF<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">HamSCI Lead<br>
Assistant Professor<br>
Department of Physics and Electrical Engineering<br>
University of Scranton<br>
(973) 787-4506<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Apr 17, 2020, at 1:41 PM, Tom McDermott via TangerineSDR <<a href="mailto:tangerinesdr@lists.tapr.org" target="_blank">tangerinesdr@lists.tapr.org</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Bill - thanks for the link to the paper. I don't have access to the references in the paper, particularly<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">[1], [2], [3], and [4], so I am missing the details of the critical first step. My reading of the paper indicates that<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">the initial estimate of the frequency is needed, and that initial estimate has to distinguish between adjacent<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">spectral bins, those being +/-fs/N apart. (Section 2.1, step 1.)<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">So perhaps I'm reading this wrong, but it still seems like one needs 1000 samples to separate<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">out the desired bin, assuming 10 Hz sample rate and 10 milliHz resolution, that is 100 seconds.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">[ The DFT doesn't need a power-of-two sample size, it can just be a convenient number. ]<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-- Tom, N5EG<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 8:52 AM Engelke, Bill via TangerineSDR <<a href="mailto:tangerinesdr@lists.tapr.org" target="_blank">tangerinesdr@lists.tapr.org</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">In
<a href="https://scranton.zoom.us/rec/play/tMd4JO39-j43H4WQ5gSDC_AtW9S_ffmsgHcd-KJZy0uzUiIAZlPwMuQSYbeIYiPAWTSPSeb1nkzcpCCR?startTime=1587063159000&_x_zm_rtaid=NMAJy4E0RWahMdU1UXtvsg.1587138515458.823452708c432bc18700b9c14edfeb54&_x_zm_rhtaid=286" target="_blank">
yesterday’s HamSCI research telco</a>, we discussed several ideas on how to accomplish several goals with the TangerineSDR; a summary is below for your review and comment.<u></u><u></u></p>
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We currently think that the Data Engine (DE) will have the capacity to simultaneously collect up to 8 channels of data for observing Doppler shift in carrier frequencies, i.e., WWV at 2.5, 5, 10, 15, 20 MHz plus CHU at 3.33, 7.335 and 14.670 MHz. We think
we can do this by observing excursions of up to +/- 1 Hz from the carrier frequency with a
<b>precision of 0.01 Hz, with measurements taken every second </b>(see next point).<u></u><u></u></li><li class="MsoNormal">
In earlier discussions on this board, it has been stated that this kind of precision (10 milliHz) would require a 102.4 second sample time; this assumes the processing is linear. CWRU is using a non-linear method in the low-cost approach to extract a frequency
estimate, which uses fldigi to achieve the 10 milliHz resolution once per second, and it was discussed that TangerineSDR could be set up to do this as well. (Reference here:
<a href="http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1017.4615&rep=rep1&type=pdf" target="_blank">
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1017.4615&rep=rep1&type=pdf</a> )<u></u><u></u></li><li class="MsoNormal">
I won’t try to explain the method mentioned above, as it is at the very limits of my understanding; however, a couple of observations…
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The CWRU low-cost system uses fldigi to implement the frequency estimator, and in looking at fldigi I see that it requires sound card input. In the case of the TangerineSDR, we will have buffers of IQ data. I don’t think I want to use some sort of kludge to
take the buffers and somehow emulate a sound card (do I?) – another option might be to implement the frequency estimator algorithm in the Small Board Computer (SBC) of the TangerineSDR. If we could/should do this, I would ask for a volunteer to code it; I
fear that if I try to do it, it would take far too long for me to get up the learning curve. The code (C++) for the algorithm as used in fldigi is online (included with hundreds of other routines; see
<a href="http://www.w1hkj.com/files/fldigi/" target="_blank">http://www.w1hkj.com/files/fldigi/</a> ). A third option might be to persuade the fldigi team to support buffer or file input.<u></u><u></u></li><li class="MsoNormal">
As I understand, the frequency estimator outputs a single value: the strongest signal in the band. A downside of this is that there seems to be a lot of other possible information in the data (Steve Cerwin has shown data he has collected showing Doppler effects
but with multiple structures including various modes in both time and frequency domain). We need some guidance from the science community: what data do we really need to do the desired science?? Maybe we need to implement/support both raw data collection &
frequency estimation at the same time(?)<u></u><u></u></li><li class="MsoNormal">
In yesterday’s call, we discussed that we should be able to specify an 8 ksps sample rate and a center frequency, and get the desired 10 milliHz resolution – frankly, I am still fuzzy on the details of this, so I wish someone (David Kazdan? Kristina?) would
chime in and explain, for the record, how this works.<u></u><u></u></li></ol>
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Channel configuration settings for the DE: <u></u><u></u></li></ol>
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The DE will be able to tell the SBC what data rates it supports. We are working with 2-byte command codes; in general, a command ending in “?” is a query, i.e., send the DE the command “S?” and it answers “AK” , a simple health check. Send the DE the command
“R?” – it will respond with a table such as the following:<u></u><u></u></li></ol>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.75in">
1 2000 2 4000 3 8000 4 16000 etc. – where each entry is 2 integers: an index and a sample rate (Hz). To put a channel into data rate of 8000 sps, we put 3 into the channel setting.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-left:1in"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Please comment! -73- Bill, AB4EJ<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Sincerely,<br>
<br>
Aidan Montare<br>
CWRU Class of 2021<u></u><u></u></p>
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