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Kewl Steve - yes you got no bananas...<BR>
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On Fri, 2006-08-11 at 11:10 -0400, Steven Stimpson wrote:<BR>
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<FONT COLOR="#000000">----- Original Message ----- </FONT>
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<B><FONT COLOR="#000000">From:</FONT></B><FONT COLOR="#000000"> <A HREF="mailto:k8rra@ameritech.net">George (Skip) VerDuin</A> </FONT>
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<B><FONT COLOR="#000000">To:</FONT></B><FONT COLOR="#000000"> <A HREF="mailto:nos-bbs@lists.tapr.org">TAPR xNOS Mailing List</A> </FONT>
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<B><FONT COLOR="#000000">Sent:</FONT></B><FONT COLOR="#000000"> Friday, August 11, 2006 10:40 AM</FONT>
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<B><FONT COLOR="#000000">Subject:</FONT></B><FONT COLOR="#000000"> Re: [nos-bbs] Collision avoidance</FONT>
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<FONT COLOR="#000000">Actually - I don't mind the wait to get a 1/2 second opening to jump into.</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">My trouble is not waiting...</FONT><BR>
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<FONT COLOR="#000000">This is a side-light information...</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">I found some distressing frames I don't know how to produce even if I tried.</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">MAXFRAME allows packing multiple packets into a frame / however / I see multiple repeats of the SAME packet in a frame.</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">This smells BAD to me. </FONT>
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<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="#000000"> SKIP:</FONT></FONT>
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<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="#000000"> 1/2 second is too short, that is shorter than most SLOT times and TXD will allow,</FONT></FONT>
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<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="#000000">as a matter of fact a lot of people use an actual TXD greater than 1/2 second.</FONT></FONT>
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<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="#000000">1/2 second between transmissions is way too short, IN short, they</FONT></FONT>
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<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="#000000">are "Hogging" the frequency using aggressive timings. In other</FONT></FONT>
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<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="#000000">words YOU have seen the light of day and are going to use persist and slots.</FONT></FONT>
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<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="#000000"> If the time between thier tx is really that short, they are using neither.</FONT></FONT><BR>
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One of the reasons for my focus on the RF side is to see what my neighbors are doing.<BR>
Your analysis is pretty good - especially on track for one guy who is gaining a "reputation" around here...<BR>
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I'll be adjusting SLOT and PERSIST now that they are functioning - this is confirmation that Jay was on track.
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<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="#000000">The repeat Packets. I have been complaining about this for years with KISS. The</FONT></FONT>
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<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="#000000">fault is not JNos or your Tnc, it is the fact that the ax.25 protocol is seperated</FONT></FONT>
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<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="#000000">from the tnc and resides in your computer. the computer does not know that your</FONT></FONT>
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<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="#000000">tnc has been waiting 5 seconds to transmit frame number one, so IN</FONT></FONT>
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<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="#000000">the computer the frack timer expires, and the computer sends it again. your only solution</FONT></FONT>
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<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="#000000">is to set a really high frack timer. this will slow things down, but will stop</FONT></FONT>
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<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="#000000">the DUP frames. I use KISS mainly on H.F. and the wait times, at 300 baud,</FONT></FONT>
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<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="#000000">between frames can be great, and we run into this problem a lot. This problem</FONT></FONT>
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<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="#000000">would also be solved if the TX'ing stations would reduce maxframe and paclen.</FONT></FONT><BR>
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That makes sense.<BR>
Now the challenge is to motivate FRAC changes in the neighborhood.<BR>
Or possibly the exponential retry formula?
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<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="#000000">the problems you are running into with slots, persist, and frack>kiss expiry are</FONT></FONT>
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<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="#000000">all symptoms of an EXTREMELY busy frequency, or if only a couple stations</FONT></FONT>
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<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="#000000">are present, some rather rude Parms are in place.</FONT></FONT>
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<FONT COLOR="#000000">I see no evidence of duplication thus FRACK may be OK... </FONT><BR>
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Of course you recognize this reference is to my frac only.<BR>
Of course my frack was defeated by my mis-set parameter.<BR>
So now my frac is subject to adjustment too...<BR>
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This is one of those "the deeper you dig the more you find the deeper you must dig" things.
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<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="#000000">Look up ^^^^^ you said you are seeing multiple dupes in the same</FONT></FONT>
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<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="#000000">"Frame". A frame and a "Packet" are the same thing. the multiple</FONT></FONT>
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<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="#000000">packets you are seeing sent to the tnc is a matter of</FONT></FONT>
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<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="#000000">the kiss protocol. if you have maxF set greater to one,</FONT></FONT>
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<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="#000000">say, rudely, to four, then your jnos, in KISS< will send four</FONT></FONT>
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<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="#000000">Frames in one Burst to the tnc. If you are seeing more than one</FONT></FONT>
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<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="#000000">of the same "frame" or "Packet" in the same burst then the frack timer is</FONT></FONT>
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<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="#000000">indeed too short for the channel conditions. Channel conditions depending</FONT></FONT>
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<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="#000000">on how many folks or how polite the channel users are being.</FONT></FONT><BR>
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This vocabulary is problematic...<BR>
"encapsulation" is used with various contexts.<BR>
"Frame" seems to have various applications in different OSI model Layers.<BR>
"packet" gets used more broadly perhaps than is appropriate by the strict definition.<BR>
You introduce "burst".<BR>
One of my challenges in this business has been to adapt vocabulary in order to communicate...<BR>
It's more art than science (my opinion).<BR>
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Strictly, I should take exception to your statement "<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="#000000"> frame and a "Packet" are the same thing.</FONT></FONT>".<BR>
But I believe I understand your point after reading the entire paragraph...<BR>
If I am, then:<BR>
The duplication of packets in a burst (I call frame) is the result of computer software believing the link is broken and in need of repeat packet transmission.<BR>
The solution involves changing timers at the computer and perhaps reducing packet stacking for the TNC.
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<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="#000000"> Only trying to help so please don't tell me to "remove the bananna" this time :-) :-)</FONT></FONT><BR>
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My guess for what to do next is to create an awareness for the concept of "useful traffic thruput bytes per minute" in the area.<BR>
Then get measurements established and shared.<BR>
I doubt that the stations stacking up repeat packets know it is happening and don't have tools to "see" it.<BR>
And the "speedometer" seems useful in several contexts.<BR>
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It's part of the hobby?
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<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="#000000">Steven N1OHX</FONT></FONT>
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73<BR>
de Skip k8rra k<BR>
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