<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>Bob,</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">Would the only information be transmitted would be just the grid square or with the callsign also be associated with the grid square?</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">I don't think 30 m or 40 m will ever be "perfect "so maybe in the cases where your idea has overlap (over 1000 km) then maybe the call sign, if transmitted, could help discern.<br><br>73's<br><br>Tom KA8HUZ</div><div id="AppleMailSignature"></div><div id="AppleMailSignature"><br>Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br>On Oct 11, 2016, at 2:29 PM, Robert Bruninga <<a href="mailto:bruninga@usna.edu">bruninga@usna.edu</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
span.EmailStyle18
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">The tradeoff I’m working with here is position resolution for an APRS mobile. Right now Grid squares are worldwide unique. This requires a lot of bits that never change unless the DX is huge. I took another look at it and if we organize the same grids into groups that are 9x9, instead of the current 180x180, then we can get a position down to about 0.2x0.3 miles instead of the current 7x10 mile resolution in the same number of bits. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">But the positions are not unique worldwide but repeat every 1800 miles in latitude and every 2500 miles in longitude. But this pretty well covers a continent. SO, we can use this if we chose a band that hardly ever goes beyond 1800 miles… </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">What do you think about 30 meters? I guess it can still do that far? OK, then what about 40m? </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">And again, I am only talking about the transmitter end being a mobile with a vertical antenna.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I appreciate your input.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Bob</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">WB4aPR</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> hfsig [mailto:<a href="mailto:hfsig-bounces@tapr.org">hfsig-bounces@tapr.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Mitch Winkle<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 11, 2016 9:21 AM<br><b>To:</b> TAPR HF Modes SIG Mailing List<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [hfsig] HF performance under 200 miles?</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p>DX is hardly evil as long as the results are achieved. Your project, your decision...my 2 cents.</p><p>Mitch</p><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Oct 10, 2016 9:37 PM, "Robert Bruninga" <<a href="mailto:bruninga@usna.edu">bruninga@usna.edu</a>> wrote:</p><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">But I dont want DX ever in this app.. I want HF that works out to 250 miles during the day and not much beyond 500 miles at night. Then, just like WIDE1-1 on VHF, we can keep things HF local, re-use the freuqncy and also gain 100 to one precision by not having to transmit worl-wide unique posits, but just say 1000 mile unique. That's the idea anyway.</p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">I climbed up the roof to inspect my multi-band dipole and to my amazement, all 8 legs were intact, and just drooping down in the shrubery on all sides, so it looks like aI can gt back on HF by just a lot of rock throwing and string...</p></div><p class="MsoNormal">bob, WB4APR</p><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 11:36 AM, Mitch Winkle <<a href="mailto:mitchwinkle@gmail.com" target="_blank">mitchwinkle@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</p><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><div><p class="MsoNormal">That's not always valid reasoning when it comes to HF actually, and here's why.</p><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Just because the "nearest" HF gate is 200 - 300 miles away doesn't mean that's the best one to use all the time. NVIS communications make sense if you are networking around that model (such as MARS does in regional comms). If you are involving alternate connectivity such as internet, RF distance is rather inconsequential.</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Case in point: Using WINMOR for Winlink connectivity for the recent Virginia ARES SET, it was necessary for me to use a station in North Miami, FL, over 1000 miles away in order to gain access to the network reliably on HF. Now the same could be said for HF APRS as well. Why worry about the distance at all? Designate a frequency on each band and be happy. Scanning is commonplace for many types of networking tools such as packet, ALE and Winlink systems.</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">To try to provide a direct answer to your question though, an overall high availability data only band like 30m (which is already the target for many using APRS) makes a lot of sense. It's long-regional flavor spans not only NVIS on it's edge days of propagation, but good sky wave as well, and solid overnight performance for many hundreds of miles. It is common to have trans-Atlantic QSO's in the dark also.</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">"What frequency should I use on HF?" is one of the most asked questions in all of Amateur Radio. The answer is almost always the same. "The one that works today."</p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all"></p><div><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">--<br>Mitch Winkle<br><a href="http://ewamjlu.blogspot.com" target="_blank">http://ewamjlu.blogspot.com</a><br>...How long will you go limping between two different opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him...<br>1 Kings 18 ESV</p></div></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 9:44 AM, Robert Bruninga <<a href="mailto:bruninga@usna.edu" target="_blank">bruninga@usna.edu</a>> wrote:</p><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><div><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">For under say 200 miles, what is the best band round the clock?</p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Given that a 1 Watt WSPR transmitter performs as if it was 1000W due to processing gain, couldn't it punch through the day time noise?</p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">And APRS only has to go say 200 miles to the nearest HFgate to provide almost total coverage of the USA because every where is within 200 miles of a city where maybe a ham will be running an HF gate?</p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">So that is the question. Forget the high noise levels... WSPR can work through that. what band will provide the connectivity 24/7/364 over that 200 to 300 mile range?</p></div><p class="MsoNormal">Bob</p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>_______________________________________________<br>hfsig mailing list<br><a href="mailto:hfsig@tapr.org" target="_blank">hfsig@tapr.org</a><br><a href="http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/hfsig" target="_blank">http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/hfsig</a></p></blockquote></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>_______________________________________________<br>hfsig mailing list<br><a href="mailto:hfsig@tapr.org" target="_blank">hfsig@tapr.org</a><br><a href="http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/hfsig" target="_blank">http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/hfsig</a></p></blockquote></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>_______________________________________________<br>hfsig mailing list<br><a href="mailto:hfsig@tapr.org">hfsig@tapr.org</a><br><a href="http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/hfsig" target="_blank">http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/hfsig</a></p></blockquote></div></div></div>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>hfsig mailing list</span><br><span><a href="mailto:hfsig@tapr.org">hfsig@tapr.org</a></span><br><span><a href="http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/hfsig">http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/hfsig</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>