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<div>Hi Ron,</div><div><br></div><div>Think of MS as E-layer propagation that lasts only as long as the ionization level permits for the frequency being used. There is nothing magical about MS. The geometry is exactly the same as E-layer communication (with an added "Doppler" factor).<br></div><div><br></div><div>If a station is has problems utilizing E-layer propagation (poor horizon, etc.), then it will have problems with MS.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Though I have some experience, satellite is not my forte'. However it seems to me that a traditional satellite-based, store-and-forward messaging system is well suited for your use-case. LEO Amateur satellites orbit below the Van Allen belts and tend to be less suceptible to the X-ray events that impact geostationary birds.</div><div><br></div><div>Best regards,</div><div>Ev, W2EV</div><div><br></div><div><br></div>
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On Sunday, October 15, 2017, 5:00:26 PM EDT, Ron VE8RT <ve8rt@yknwt.ca> wrote:
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<div><div dir="ltr"> Ok part 2 :-)<br clear="none"><br clear="none"> I like the questions.<br clear="none"><br clear="none"> The end goal is minimal emcomm capability that doesn't rely on HF<br clear="none">propagation. Satellite is a good prospect and would probably be the<br clear="none">first choice. But a serious X-ray event could interrupt that, we had<br clear="none">another event several years back with a commercial satellite that put<br clear="none">commercial, government, and military communications out in the eastern<br clear="none">Canadian arctic for hours.<br clear="none"><br clear="none"> I'm not a DXer in the sense that I haven't any interest in getting<br clear="none">DXCC, it would be for personal satisfaction only.<br clear="none"><br clear="none"> So at this point this is experimental to find out, would it work, how<br clear="none">well would it work, how simple can an effective station be, would it<br clear="none">work from a location with a poor horizon (mountain valley), could it<br clear="none">handle some basic health and welfare traffic (not time critical). Does<br clear="none">it need to be APRS, no I don't think so, but I like the idea of the<br clear="none">traffic reaching a point where it could be seen online.<br clear="none"><br clear="none"> I'm not open to suggestions, I'm practically begging for ideas :-)<br clear="none"><br clear="none"> Ron VE8RT<br clear="none"><br clear="none">On Sun, 15 Oct 2017 19:48:15 +0000 (UTC)<br clear="none">Ev Tupis <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:w2ev@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">w2ev@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none"><br clear="none">> In the "old days" I used to tune to TV channel 3. It was absent of any local station. When it lit up, I'd call "CQ Scatter". I worked many states that way.<br clear="none">> To my knowledge, nobody has come up with a self-triggering mechanism using a broadcast source as you suggest.<br clear="none">> The footprint of the distant point is proportional to the frequency used. If using a broadcast FM station (the "3 meter band") as your "trigger", you can be certain that a 6 meter signals' footprint exists along the same path...and it is actually a bit more broad at the DX end.<br clear="none">> The requirement of high duty cycle is based on leveraging the time-domain as explained earlier in the thread.<br clear="none">> You have introduced the concept of an IGate station. Traditionally, APRS MS operation takes place without an IGate involved, so I'm unsure what role you see for it.<br clear="none">> If your intent is EmComm, then there are much better ways to go about the task.<br clear="none">> So...what is your purpose? Experiment? EmComm? DXing? etc.?<br clear="none">> Cheers,Ev, W2EV<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> On Sunday, October 15, 2017, 9:52:24 AM EDT, Ron VE8RT <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:ve8rt@yknwt.ca" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">ve8rt@yknwt.ca</a>> wrote: <br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> Ooooh! Stupid simple idea just came to mind for emcomm APRS.<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> Assumption 1, the destination city for the emcomm traffic has<br clear="none">> working high power FM broadcast stations on air.<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> Assumption 2, a MS path for the FM station between the originating<br clear="none">> station and the destination station is also a working path for the 6M<br clear="none">> traffic.<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> If both are true then there is no need for high duty cycle<br clear="none">> transmissions to determine if a path exists, a separate receiver tuned<br clear="none">> to the destination FM transmitter could trigger a data exchange.<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> A question though is how small is the MS path footprint, how close<br clear="none">> does the igate station need to be to the FM station used?<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> Ron VE8RT<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> On Sun, 15 Oct 2017 11:11:21 +0000 (UTC)<br clear="none">> Ev Tupis <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:w2ev@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">w2ev@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> > Hi Ron,If you are interested in specifically using APRS for MS on 6 meters, you will need to setup both ends of the path, just as you have done. There is little-to-no 6 meter APRS activity on 6 meters to use as a "base".<br clear="none">> > Operation requires a transceiver and/or amplifier that is capable of 50% duty cycle (use a Fan!). One station will TX for 15 seconds while the other one RX's. Clearly, you must coordinate TX and RX intervals.<br clear="none">> > <br clear="none">> > The more power you transmit, the easier it is to make a contact (a general principle that transcends MS-specific communication).<br clear="none">> > Some degree of success has been had with as little as 25 watts + 10 dBi antenna (250 watts EIRP) at 6 meters.<br clear="none">> > Success is largely defined within the "time dimension" (being able to operate for long periods of time). Since everything is computer controlled, it is possible to select a seldom used frequency and let it run over night...taking advantage of the spike in MS ionization that occurs from 3 AM to 9 AM local time. This works well if you are allowed to run under "automatic control" (like an FM repeater does) rather than being forced to have a human operator present at all time.<br clear="none">> > <br clear="none">> > FM APRS works well. So does the SSB mode. You can experiment to see which provides a superior experience.<br clear="none">> > 'hope this has helped as a bit of a primer.<br clear="none">> > <br clear="none">> > Best regards,Ev, W2EV<br clear="none">> > <br clear="none">> > On Saturday, October 14, 2017, 8:21:12 PM EDT, Ron VE8RT <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:ve8rt@yknwt.ca" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">ve8rt@yknwt.ca</a>> wrote: <br clear="none">> > <br clear="none">> > Hi,<br clear="none">> > <br clear="none">> > I've re-joined the APRS SIG forum.<br clear="none">> > <br clear="none">> > And I'm doing a little shopping for 6M gear. I have a FT 726 that<br clear="none">> > is being shipped to me from the US, Joel at RF Connection offered it to<br clear="none">> > me for free, along with additional modules, and manuals, for the cost<br clear="none">> > of shipping. And I have a new in the box Cushcraft 5el yagi thats been<br clear="none">> > in the back shed since I bought it. With short coax run up the tower I<br clear="none">> > should be fine without a masthead preamp.<br clear="none">> > <br clear="none">> > The National APRS Meteorscatter test that Bob mentioned would be<br clear="none">> > interesting to look at. Of particular interest is the useable range,<br clear="none">> > we need a thousand kilometres to get into Edmonton from here, the<br clear="none">> > closest major city. This part of the Northwest Territories is<br clear="none">> > relatively flat, the Yukon on the other hand is mountainous and I'd<br clear="none">> > like to know how well this would work in the mountain valleys. <br clear="none">> > <br clear="none">> > Yuuri, VY1YU / JS6SHS, who ran the earlier HF propagation<br clear="none">> > experiments has been e-mailed to see if he'd be interested in trying a<br clear="none">> > MS APRS experiment. He's gotten back to me and is interested in<br clear="none">> > setting up some tests.<br clear="none">> > <br clear="none">> > What additional hardware, other than the transceiver and antenna,<br clear="none">> > should I have to try this? I've been tinkering with Arduinos, Cory had<br clear="none">> > mentioned earlier, but I'm not sure where they fit in.<br clear="none">> > <br clear="none">> > If there is anything that I need to buy out of the US I'd like to<br clear="none">> > get it ordered and on it's way to Joel at RF Connection to have it<br clear="none">> > included in the package he's sending me.<br clear="none">> > <br clear="none">> > Thanks for your help!<br clear="none">> > <br clear="none">> > Ron VE8RT (30M WSPR as VE8TEA)<br clear="none">> > <br clear="none">> > On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 16:45:45 -0400<br clear="none">> > Cory Vickruck <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:crvickru@lakeheadu.ca" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">crvickru@lakeheadu.ca</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">> > <br clear="none">> > > Also I would be happy to setup an igate for him to test. I think I might be<br clear="none">> > > just out of range however. I am in thunder bay Ontario<br clear="none">> > > <br clear="none">> > > <br clear="none">> > > On Oct 12, 2017 4:31 PM, "Cory Vickruck" <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:crvickru@lakeheadu.ca" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">crvickru@lakeheadu.ca</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">> > > <br clear="none">> > > > After reading a bit more about the topic I am interested in trying it out.<br clear="none">> > > > How much power would be enough for reliable packets at 6m APRS?<br clear="none">> > > ><br clear="none">> > > ><br clear="none">> > > > On Oct 12, 2017 2:36 PM, "Cory Vickruck" <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:crvickru@lakeheadu.ca" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">crvickru@lakeheadu.ca</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">> > > ><br clear="none">> > > >> Could PSK-31 be a option? Maybe fsq would be a good option as it can be<br clear="none">> > > >> interfaced with an Arduino.<br clear="none">> > > >><br clear="none">> > > >> On Oct 12, 2017 2:12 PM, "Robert Bruninga" <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:bruninga@usna.edu" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">bruninga@usna.edu</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">> > > >><br clear="none">> > > >> We have had great success with APRS Meteor Scatter on 6 meters, but I have<br clear="none">> > > >> not done it since 1996? Maybe its time for some new blood. Let me see if<br clear="none">> > > >> I can find the results of our first National APRS Meteroscatter test.<br clear="none">> > > >><br clear="none">> > > >> Everyone, meet Ron, VE8RT who needs to communicate probably by APRS using<br clear="none">> > > >> Meteorscatter from the great Northwest... He currently is not on the<br clear="none">> > > >> APRSSIG and so reply here so we can see the interest, and I will forward<br clear="none">> > > >> any useful replies to him. Bob, WB4aPR<br clear="none">> > > >><br clear="none">> > > >> -----Original Message-----<br clear="none">> > > >> From: Ron VE8RT [<a shape="rect" href="mailto:ve8rt@yknwt.ca" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">ve8rt@yknwt.ca</a>]<br clear="none">> > > >> Subject: 6M APRS via meteor scatter forum?<br clear="none">> > > >><br clear="none">> > > >> Hi Bob,<br clear="none">> > > >><br clear="none">> > > >> I'm looking for a forum, if there is one, on meteor scatter and APRS.<br clear="none">> > > >> I'm one of less than a score of active amateur radio operators here in the<br clear="none">> > > >> Northwest Territories of Canada. The majority of amateur radio activity<br clear="none">> > > >> is here in Yellowknife (the capital), with distances of over a thousand<br clear="none">> > > >> kilometres seperating some of us. HF propagation is generally poor and<br clear="none">> > > >> unreliable, so I'm looking into 6M meteor scatter APRS or other digital<br clear="none">> > > >> modes for emergency communications.<br clear="none">> > > >><br clear="none">> > > >> I had joined the TAPR APRS SIG forum for a few days, having posted my<br clear="none">> > > >> introduction and my interest in meteor scatter APRS, but it didn't<br clear="none">> > > >> generate any replies (so I unsubscribed).<br clear="none">> > > >><br clear="none">> > > >> Would you have any suggestions?<br clear="none">> > > >><br clear="none">> > > >> Thanks,<br clear="none">> > > >><br clear="none">> > > >> Ron VE8RT in DP22<br clear="none">> > > >> --<br clear="none">> > > >> Ron VE8RT <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:ve8rt@yknwt.ca" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">ve8rt@yknwt.ca</a>><br clear="none">> > > >> _______________________________________________<br clear="none">> > > >> aprssig mailing list<br clear="none">> > > >> <a shape="rect" href="mailto:aprssig@tapr.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">aprssig@tapr.org</a><br clear="none">> > > >> <a shape="rect" href="http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/aprssig" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/aprssig</a><div class="ydp2532695yqt0811247814" id="ydp2532695yqtfd84568"><br clear="none">> > > >><br clear="none">> > > >><br clear="none">> > > >><br clear="none">> > <br clear="none">> > <br clear="none">> > -- <br clear="none">> > Ron VE8RT <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:ve8rt@yknwt.ca" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">ve8rt@yknwt.ca</a>><br clear="none">> > _______________________________________________<br clear="none">> > aprssig mailing list<br clear="none">> > <a shape="rect" href="mailto:aprssig@tapr.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">aprssig@tapr.org</a><br clear="none">> > <a shape="rect" href="http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/aprssig" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/aprssig</a><br clear="none">> > <br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> -- <br clear="none">> Ron VE8RT <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:ve8rt@yknwt.ca" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">ve8rt@yknwt.ca</a>><br clear="none">> _______________________________________________<br clear="none">> aprssig mailing list<br clear="none">> <a shape="rect" href="mailto:aprssig@tapr.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">aprssig@tapr.org</a><br clear="none">> <a shape="rect" href="http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/aprssig" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/aprssig</a><br clear="none">> <br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none">-- <br clear="none">Ron VE8RT <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:ve8rt@yknwt.ca" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">ve8rt@yknwt.ca</a>><br clear="none">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">aprssig mailing list<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="mailto:aprssig@tapr.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">aprssig@tapr.org</a><br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/aprssig" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/aprssig</a><br clear="none"></div></div></div>
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