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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">I concur Bob. I suggested the
differentiation for the Viscous digipeater specifically because it
DOES behave differently and not known it can drive a local user to
distraction. If I'm sitting right next to a (non-differentiated)
WIDE1 digipeater that is actually Viscous, I could wonder a long
time why it isn't digipeating my WIDE1-1 packets when in fact, I
was also in range of a WIDE2 digi that was copying me direct.
Until and unless I hide from the WIDE2 digi while still in range
of the Viscous WIDE1 digi, I would never see it digipeat.<br>
<br>
If the behavior is different, then the differentiation should be
made IMHO. Saying it in comments or capabilities is nice, but
that's even more of a free-for-all land than the symbols.<br>
<br>
Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Adding my $0.02 to yours.<br>
<br>
On 10/18/2016 1:36 PM, Robert Bruninga wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">APRS
goal is situational awareness. Digis have a code field for
identifying over 36 flavors of Digi. If a digi performs
differently than others, then we should identify that
difference.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">There
is nothing worse than inconsistent results from things that
look the same. Hence, if a viscous digipeater is going to
do something unexpectedly to a users packet then the user
deserves the opportunity to have that information available
to him.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Just
my 2 cents.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Bob,
Wb4APR</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">
aprssig [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:aprssig-bounces@tapr.org">aprssig-bounces@tapr.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Kenneth Finnegan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 18, 2016 1:25 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> TAPR APRS Mailing List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [aprssig] Digipeater Symbol Overlays</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 8:08 AM, Lynn
W. Deffenbaugh (Mr) <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ldeffenb@homeside.to" target="_blank">ldeffenb@homeside.to</a>> wrote:</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I'm not a big fan of the concept,
but since we're in the area and people are using
them, how about viscous digipeaters?</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I'd make the same argument for viscous
digipeaters as I will for path trapping (#L) digipeaters.
I don't think it's a defining enough characteristic to
make people have to learn a new digipeater symbol. </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I don't understand what we're expecting
people to do with the information about a digipeater being
a limited or viscous digipeater. When I'm looking at a map
of digipeaters, I'm really only interested in knowing
which ones are fill-in (1#) and which one's aren't. How do
we expect users to react differently to a V# digipeater on
the map than a 1# digipeater?</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 6:25 AM, Robert
Bruninga <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bruninga@usna.edu" target="_blank">bruninga@usna.edu</a>> wrote:</p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
agree that L and P are mostly obsolete, but we need
them in the table because it will take decades
before some people change their symbol.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">So let's think about this from a
forward build view-point. If we are waiting decades for
people to stop using L and P, what is keeping new
digipeaters from being set up using these symbols?</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Imagine a new digi operator pulls up
symbols-new and scrolls through the list looking for which
symbol to use. He's configuring his digipeater to trap
>2 hop paths, so L seems like the right choice. What
did he do wrong here? L is listed as the WIDEn-N digi with
path trap, and that's what he's setting up.</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I wouldn't even list them with a note
about being obsolete. If someone is still running a P# or
L# digipeater and local users are constantly asking them
what that symbol even means, it's all the more pressure
for them to consider updating their 10 year old digipeater
config.</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
did add #W as a new one to cover the generic
WIDEn-N, SSn-N with path limiting as the overall
digi we use today if anyone wants to start using it.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Except that in several other places on
your website you list #W as "OBSOLETE RELAY,WIDE
digipeater". </p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">If you want us to use W# for
WIDEn-N,SSn-N,path trap digipeaters, what is the
difference from S#? I thought we were deprecating L#
because we wanted all digipeaters to trap ridiculous
paths, so S# would implicitly include path limiting for
WIDEn-N aliases.</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I'll go back to my original suggestion.
I think the overlay set should be this:</p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt"> /# -
Generic WIDEn-N digipeater</span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt"> 1# -
WIDE1-1/direct-only digipeater</span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt"> A# -
Alternate input (i.e. 144.990MHz) digipeater</span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt"> I# -
I-gate equipped digipeater</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt"> S# -
SSn-N local net alias digipeater</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt"> X# -
eXperimental digipeater</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">1#, /#, and S# cover the three tiers of
traditional stand-alone digipeaters (WIDE1-1, WIDEn-N,
SSn-N and WIDEn-N)</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">A# digipeaters tell you that alt-input
trackers are usable here.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I# tells you that traffic meant only
for the Internet doesn't need to be digipeated</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">X# tells you that this digipeater is
short-lived and shouldn't be planned on sticking around.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think that should be it (I might even
argue that SSn-N digis should use /# and advertise their
local alias groups otherwise, taking the list down to
five). We shouldn't be expecting users to memorize ten
different overlay codes for when they're looking at a map
of digipeaters. Lets keep the symbol set for this
infrastructure simple.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">If you want to specifically advertise
digipeaters as being path traps, being on emergency power,
etc, define fields to add to the '<' station
capabilities packet. That is far and away more expressive
than trying to encode four different optional capabilities
in the single overlay character.</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all">
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<p class="MsoNormal">--<br>
Kenneth Finnegan<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://blog.thelifeofkenneth.com/"
target="_blank">http://blog.thelifeofkenneth.com/</a></p>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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