[aprssig] Cleaning up the Global APRS Satellite ground station network?- New Symbol

steve at dimse.com steve at dimse.com
Tue Aug 8 11:49:28 EDT 2017

> On Aug 7, 2017, at 10:21 PM, Robert Bruninga <bruninga at usna.edu> wrote:
> I'd say each Radio only gets one symbol, and these permanent gound station radios listening on 145.825 as satellite grouind stations are only doing a single function. And they are not on 144.39 where their other station symbols might be.

It isn't the radio, it is the computer program/SSID. A single computer using a single SSID could, for example, send weather to the internet and also be a sat gate. And you ignored that symbol identy is clearly something many APRS users care about. Many people want the ability to personalize.
> > 2. You will never get great compliance with anything that is user-configurable, especially if it involves station identity. Even if #1 were not a problem there will always be people that will not do it correctly.
> But no reason not to have a standard for those that want to make it an identifiable network.

A standard is a something everyone is expected to follow. If you want to call it a suggestion that is one thing, but certainly not a standard. Even suggestions have a life far beyond intent and I'd still argue against it. Even today, 20 years after being supplanted by better hacks for symbol identity, 15 years after being officially deprecated, people are still being SSID police for your arbitrary SSID list from the 90s. 
> > 3. Even if 1 and 2 aren't a problem, you only get those who intend to be satellite gates, not those who actually meet equipment, performance, and configuration requirements.
> Thats exaclty what we want.  We want them to self identify and there are multiple overlays so each Satgate station can identiy their category and so one-size does not have to fit all. 

You miss my point. What you want is to know who is actually functioning as satgates. What you get is a list of some of the people who intend to be satgates. Under your proposal there will be people on the list who want to be satgates but are not for a variety of reasons, and the list will contain others who are functioning satgates. If there were no other way to get the info you want that would be one thing, but the information is right there in every satgate packet for someone to pick out. 
> It is easy to identify those people who function as satellite gateways using the path of packets. Creating a database from the actual data will catch those who actually function as satgates without needing any extra compliance from the operators.
> Yes, but two problems.  First you need a symbol to be able to do an easy sort-by-symbol map which is usually the first-order view of APRS information. You cannot sort a map based on the QAR construct.

No, not with the current tools on findU or aprs.fi. But if someone parses out the info and keeps that in a database table you have the information available to map out. 

> And second not all of the 330 stations that actually IGated are the permanet core satgatges we are interested in.  

Exactly. That is why I think the number is under 50 or 60 recently. The idea is not to have a cumulative list, but a time limited list as all of findU and aprs.fi displays have always done. You don't see all APRS stations ever on a map, you see the ones in the last hour, day, or whatever interval. 

> I agree, I don't believe the 330 ground stations either.  But that is what the QAR constcutct reported over the 18 month analysis.  

You always find a way to make me regret the favors I do for you! ;-) That data wasn't about finding a list of satgates. If you run the analysis on the data of the last 1 day, or 3.72167 days, whatever interval you want you would get what I'm talking about, current as of the date I sent you that raw data. It just needs to be done in real time.

> Which is exactly why I want those stations that are dedicated parts of this network to self-identify as same and so that the core constituancy of permanent satgages is what shows through and not just every station that QSY'ed to the 145.825 for a few contacts and then happendd to igate some packet while there.

But again, you can request compliance from a lot of people to get a flawed list, or you can get a perfectly up-to-date list by getting someone to write a little code. Which do you really want?
> I want to identify those permanent assets, and give them the means to consistently identify their capabilities so we can quantify the network. and so that every user that happens to make a satellite contact while his rig happened to be on the internet then permanently shows up as a permanent satgate

Nothing is ever permanent. People and equipment come and go, what you need is a system that identifies who is a satgate now. And then again tomorrow.

Steve K4HG

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