[aprssig] TAPR Dayton Solar Talk

Sun May 22 21:00:07 EDT 2011

Would you have to contact your local utility to let them know you are doing a grid tie inverter?
On May 22, 2011, at 7:54 PM, KBØNLY wrote:

> You are correct, our meters are forward only, the local municipality will not allow nor install net metering, its simply against their policy here and not available.  I am hoping some day they may change their thinking but for now its not possible.  I know of one local resident that installed a kW of grid tie only to find out that he couldn't get the power company to net meter his overage that he feeds to the grid.  So what did he do?  Just live with it, at least his meter isn't going forward.
> 
> Most of us are now on digital meters, the few that are still the old style mechanical units still won't spin backwards.  I know this because me and another guy took a 200w kit with grid tie inverter and plugged it into his outside outlet, which is on its own 20a circuit and then shut off all the other breakers in his panel so no power was being used from the grid, then plugged in the inverter, the diagnostic lights showed all was well, a clamped on meter showed that the grid tie inverter was indeed feeding the grid but the meter never moved backwards after 4 hours of mid day sun and the panels in full sun, so I suspect their meters even the older mechanical ones are forward only.
> 
> 73,
> 
> Scott KBØNLY
> 
> 
> -----Original Message----- From: Bob Bruninga
> Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2011 7:27 PM
> To: TAPR APRS Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [aprssig] TAPR Dayton Solar Talk
> 
>> However the biggest problem... with grid tie
>> is no buy back program here, I can't spin
>> my meter backwards feeding the grid to get
>> credit or make money towards my bill.
> 
> Just to clarify and to make sure we are speaking apples and apples, I'd like to make a few comments that may or may not apply.  First of all, -every- meter will "spin backwards" when you are generating more electricity that you are using and you are actually feeding amps back into the grid.  I put that in quotes, because it is important to be specific.
> 
> The disk by definition will spin backwards.  The only question is whther the KWH READING will "count" backwards?  In grid-tie, there is no "buying or selling of electricity".  It is much more simple than that.  It is simply pushing your present KWH reading forward or backwards.  If you are lucky to still have a meter with mechanical DIALS, then it will also COUNT backwards. In that case you alrealdy have "net-metering" whether there is a law or not.
> 
>> All I can do is slow down my meter by
>> supplementing solar to cover my usage.
> 
> Yes, if you do not have the old mechanical meter but have an ELECTRONIC read out of KWH, then it has smarts to NOT subtract numbers even when the disk -IS- spinning backwards.  Such electronic meters have 3 settings.
> 
> 1) "security mode" - no matter which way the disk spins, the numbers will only ADD FORWARD.  This prevents people from wiring aournd their meter and trying to run it backwards during some of the month to reduce their bill. They will pay going either way.
> 
> 2) Forward only mode.  This will charge you for current consumed, but it will not add numbers forward if the disk is spinning backwards.  This means at least you wont be charged for your solar excess, but you also wont get any credit either (because the numbers wont count down).
> 
> 3) Net meter - this is the ideal setting.  Disk goes forward, and numbers count up.  Disk goes backwards,and numbers count down.
> 
>> but I can't spin the meter backwards
>> to build equity to pay for the system.
> 
> If it wont "count" backwards then you are correct.  You will have to have a licensed electrician to install your system in order to get the poer company then to come out and change your meter to one that will "count backwards". But if it has mechanical dials, then it is a net meter already and it will give you credit for being pushed backwards.  So lets be more specific about the terms.
> 
> I watched my meter "SPIN" backwards by about 3 kW when I first hooked up my grid tie system.  Problem was, I nver waited to watch to see if the NUMBERS counted down on my ELECTRONIC METER. I got the bill which was $400 instead of my usual $200 one.  That's when I learned about the difference between "spinning" backwards and "counting" backwards.
> 
> So, now I have been disconnected for a few months while I find a master electrician to do all the paper work to get me a NET METER.
> 
> Now it COULD be that even a mechanical meter might have a ratchet that might not let the numbers go backwards, so the only way to be sure is to test it..
> 
> Bob, Wb4APR
> 
>> 73,
>> 
>> Scott KBØNLY
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message----- From: Bob Bruninga
>> Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2011 5:43 PM
>> To: TAPR APRS Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [aprssig] TAPR Dayton Solar Talk
>> 
>>> However one point.. Grid tie solar is only
>>> functional when the grid is powered.
>> 
>> Thanks for bringing up this often very missleading topic...
>> 
>> But in my area, the grid is up 99.95% of the time.  The grid goes down maybe
>> 4 hours a year or so (0.05%).  If the house load is about 3 kW with
>> everything on normally, that is the loss of less than $2 worth of
>> electricity.  Like any ham, Most of us already have many mechanisms for
>> coping with those few hours.
>> 
>>> However you can go with solar that uses a
>>> battery bank and a whole house inverter that
>>> has a grid tie option, when the grid fails
>>> it switches your household to the inverter
>>> and draws from the battery bank...
>> 
>> But that is a major mistake that too many people make when thinking about
>> solar.  It makes no economical sense to provide that $2 of power-out
>> electricity per year by adding the additional $10,000 for the
>> dual-inverter/charger and a wall of batteries.  There are much more
>> economical approaches to back-up power than batteries...  And this has
>> nothing to do with the economics of grid-tie solar.
>> 
>> For economical solar, one must completely separate their 99.95% use of
>> economical power (solar) from their requirement for a few hours of backup
>> power.  The optimum solutions for each are completely separate.  THough to
>> some, it might be worth spending the additional $10,000 for a few hours of
>> backup ($2 per year), but that is a completely separate issue from
>> economical solar.
>> 
>>> like having an automatic transfer switch
>>> and generator but its an inverter and batteries
>>> charged by solar instead.
>> 
>> But be careful.  Off-grid systems (with battery storage)TRIPLE the cost of
>> solar for the same energy production.  My recommendation is to think of
>> solar for economical energy for the rest of your life, and then to think of
>> a different economical approach to the few hours of power outage a year.
>> Such as ....  An inverter from your car system, a small $250 generator, a
>> pair of car batteries and an inverter...etc...
>> 
>> Lots of ways other than throwing another $10,000 at the solar system for 4
>> hours ($2) worth of darkness a year.
>> 
>> In fact, it was that same idea of filling up my basement with batteries that
>> was so uneconomical that it kept me out of solar for so long until I finally
>> realized that batteries have nothing to do with economical solar power.
>> 
>> Separate the two issues in one's mind and then it is amazing how economical
>> grid-tie solar becomes.
>> 
>>> Maybe in another 20 years I can afford it myself..
>> 
>> Another way to look at that, is... If you are paying $200 a month for
>> electricity now, in 20 years, you will have spent $48,000 for electricity
>> and have nothing to show for it.  But if you buy solar now, the government
>> will buy HALF of it for you and for the rest of your life, you will OWN your
>> entire energy generation system and have free energy for life.
>> 
>> That is why I am preaching so much.  My Ham radio background and interest in
>> emergency power and batteries so completely masked the true value and
>> economics of modern grid-tie solar for too long.  I want to help others see
>> around that missconception...
>> 
>> Bob, Wb4APR
>> 
>>> From: Bob Bruninga
>>> Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2011 9:56 AM
>>> To: aprssig at tapr.org
>>> Subject: [aprssig] TAPR Dayton Solar Talk
>>> 
>>> The AMSAT/TAPR banquet talk at Dayton was about Solar and emergency power
>>> for Ham radio.  In preparation, here are three ideas that amazed me that
>>> might amaze you:
>>> 
>>> 1) This week by googling solar panels, I found PRIME home solar (UL
>>> approved) 220 Watt panels going for $1.39 per watt! (compare that to $6/w
>>> contractor installed systems 2 years ago...)
>>> 
>>> 2) Even if you want to use bargain panels and bargain micro-grid-tie
>>> inverters, one way, is to pay a contractor to install the smallest fully
>>> approved and electrical-permitted solar system you can buy.  This  gets you
>>> fully legal, connected, grid-tied etc.  Then add as many panels and
>>> additional plug-in micro-grid inverters at your own DIY cost!
>>> 
>>> Just remember, to connect + to + in parallel, and + to - in series... and
>>> just plug in the DIY microinverters to the wall outlet.  (Note, the UL
>>> approved microinverters should be connected to a standard 20 amp breaker in
>>> your breaker box by a master electrician).
>>> 
>>> 3) Amazing angles!  No-longer does SOUTH matter!!!
>>> 
>>> I hope everyone here has had the fun of playing with the on-line PVWATTS
>>> for
>>> computing annual solar ouput over any conceivable arrangement of azimuth
>>> and
>>> elevation angles.  I just compared a pure EAST/WEST facing roof to the
>>> optimum South facing, just to see how bad it would be.   AMAZING!  Here is
>>> the PVWATTS page:
>>> http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/calculators/PVWATTS/version1/
>>> 
>>> DRUM ROLL:  A DUE EAST facing roof (with a 20 degree tilt) will produce 85%
>>> of the annual power as the ideal tilted southern array.  Amazing...
>>> 
>>> BUT!!!  SO does the WEST side of the same house!  So, unlike the southern
>>> home that can only use HALF his roof for power*, the EAST/WEST facing
>>> homeowner can generate 170% more power than the sourthern facing owner
>>> because he has twice the room to put the panels!!!  (Roof size and shade
>>> are
>>> the #1 limits to homeowner 100% production of their annual electrical
>>> needs).
>>> 
>>> *But wait, there's more!  Next for grins, I used PVWATTS to tell the power
>>> output from the NORTH FACING side of the South Facing house.  Who would
>>> ever
>>> even think of doing this?  But if the ROOF tilt is the typical low profile
>>> 20 degrees, guess what?  The NORTH side of the roof can produce 60%
>>> (annual)
>>> of the south side!  So the homeowner with his low-profile southern roof
>>> maxed out with solar, can now increase his total annual output by 60% (with
>>> a double sized array (on a low tilt roof)). He produces nearly zero in the
>>> middle of winter from that side, but makes up the full 60% of his total
>>> capacity for that array in the summer!
>>> 
>>> Many hams who know that SOUTH IS BEST find it hard to accept this.  But do
>>> the PVWATTS calculations yourself.  Remember, the SUN comes up in the NE
>>> and
>>> sets in the NW during the summer when the days are 14 to 16 hours long.
>>> This means that for the 3 hours in the morning and 3 hours in the evening,
>>> the IDEAL Southern array is not even seeing the sun.  Sure, an east facing
>>> array will produce little in the winter, but for GRID-TIE, the ONLY thing
>>> that matters is ANNUAL total power.  and all these other directions make up
>>> for their poor winter performance by making MORE power in the other months.
>>> 
>>> Even laying flat on the ground will produce 80% of the annual power (but be
>>> a maintenance issue... Any panel should be at at least 10 degrees to assure
>>> rain-cleaning).
>>> 
>>> Back to the EAST/WEST facing house... Doubling the array to get the added
>>> 160% may not have been cost effective in the past, but with DIY panels at
>>> $1/watt and DIY plug-in micro-grid inverters at about $0.30/W, it's so
>>> cheap
>>> to expand your array into less productive angles, why not!  DIY panels and
>>> added plug-in DIY microinverters can double the size of your "approved"
>>> array for probably 1/4 the original cost of your contractor installed
>>> system.
>>> 
>>> Putting panels on EVERYTHING until you get to 100% of your annual
>>> electrical
>>> load is the goal.  You can do it!  Look outside the "southern" box.  (But
>>> shade remains the #1 killer of even the greatest solar ambitions.  But as
>>> costs are so low, look again...)
>>> 
>>> Don't forget, the economics of homeowner solar is all due to GRID-TIE.
>>> There is not a single battery in the system.  Off-grid battery systems can
>>> only deliver about 33% of annual energy for the same $ investment plus the
>>> added burden of lifetime maintanance.  GRID-TIE is the only way to go (if
>>> you are on the grid)... Please see:
>>> 
>>> www.aprs.org/off-grid-maybe.html
>>> 
>>> Oh, and the BIGGEST FACTOR by far is the almost 50% Government Credits,
>>> Rebates and Grants that come right off the top of your installation costs.
>>> I would bet these are going to be gone in a year or two (my state has
>>> already reduced theirs by 1/3rd), beacuse the cost of home-solar produced
>>> power is now LESS than utility power (with the 50% incentives) and so
>>> EVERYONE is jumping into solar.  With tight budgets at all governmnet
>>> levels, do not expect these incentives to last.
>>> 
>>> Next week, I'll post slides from the AMSAT/TAPR solar talk.
>>> 
>>> Oh, and please come join the SolarDIY at yahoogroups.com discussion group made
>>> up mostly of HAMS going solar.
>>> 
>>> Bob, WB4APR
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> aprssig mailing list
>>> aprssig at tapr.org
>>> https://www.tapr.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aprssig
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> aprssig mailing list
>>> aprssig at tapr.org
>>> https://www.tapr.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aprssig
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> aprssig mailing list
>> aprssig at tapr.org
>> https://www.tapr.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aprssig
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> aprssig mailing list
>> aprssig at tapr.org
>> https://www.tapr.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aprssig
> 
> _______________________________________________
> aprssig mailing list
> aprssig at tapr.org
> https://www.tapr.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aprssig 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> aprssig mailing list
> aprssig at tapr.org
> https://www.tapr.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aprssig